Posts by RWC

20

The truth of the Resurrection

by RWC in

at this time of easter christians celebrate the foundation of their faith, the resurrection of jesus christ.

without the resurrection, the rest of the christian faith is in vain, with it, the whole plan of god is fulfilled and validated.

in other words, if the resurrection occurred it proves the existence of god and his plan for salvation.. with that in mind, i offer the proof that the resurrection is a historical fact that be relied upon:.

RWC

Valis,

." There is very real debate about the existence and the life of Jesus, as the bible leaves out a tremendous amount of info on his life. Like his relationship w/Mary Magdalene for example. BTW, do you think there was only one person ever named Jesus?"

The debate over the years has been whether Jesus existed. Prominant historians have come down on the side that the evidence supports the fact that he was a real person: H.G. Wells, for example. You may choose to try and ignore the evidence, but historians do not.

You present no proof for your arguments, you simply inject questions which are irrelevant and unsupported speculations (like Joesph of Arimetha needed the tomb so he took the body). That is no counter to the evidence that has been presented.

"More Biblical stuff"- Why do you discount and ignore what the Bible says about Jesus? What proof do you have that the Biblical accounts of Jesus' life are not accurate and trustworthy? Do you do the same with the Koran or other historical texts? For example, how much proof do you need to determine that Homer wrote the Illiead?

The bias with which you throw out the Bible as a source is preventing you from accpeting it as an historical document. If you would look at the Bible with the same neutrality that you examine other historical texts, your view may change.

As for the quote of the 10,000, That came from adding the people who are attribued to becoming believers in Acts. 120 in Acts 1:15, Acts 2:47 The Lord added to their number daily, 3000 in Acts 3:41, 5000 Acts 4:4.

I do not shy away from the word "proof". Our faith does not have to be a blind faith, nor does it have to be unsupported by evidence. The fact is that the evidence supports the reality of the resurrection as a true event. Our faith is based upon this being a reality, and not merely something to think happened through faith. Skeptics ignore the evidence that exists and throw out alot of speculations, but in the end the evidence stands on its own merit and has through the ages.

20

The truth of the Resurrection

by RWC in

at this time of easter christians celebrate the foundation of their faith, the resurrection of jesus christ.

without the resurrection, the rest of the christian faith is in vain, with it, the whole plan of god is fulfilled and validated.

in other words, if the resurrection occurred it proves the existence of god and his plan for salvation.. with that in mind, i offer the proof that the resurrection is a historical fact that be relied upon:.

RWC

No historical evidence that Jesus existed- Simply wrong. There is proof of Jesus outside of the Gospels in numerous secular writings including those by Jewish historians and Roman historians. Don't forget that at the time Jesus lived he was not the well known man he is today. He was a wandering teacher who was not that well known until after he died and rose again. His following was relatively small and would not warrant alot of mention of him while he lived. Historians throughout the years have tested the evidence of his existence and come to the conclusion that he was a real person. In fact there is more historical documentation of Jesus' existence than any other founder of ancient religions.

Grave Robbers- That has been defeated in the early part of the century when it was brought up as a potenial
explanation. To believe this you would have to also believe that the aspotsles who stole the body went to their deaths for what they knew to be a big hoax. Also you would have to discount the evidence of sightings of Jesus by as many as five hundred people at one time.

The delay- The dely that you are refering to is unbelievably short in ancient times. For example, the first biography about Budda was not written until 600 years after his death, for Muhammad it was not until 150 years after his death. Additionally, you are assuming that these writings are the first time that Paul said he saw Jesus. That is simply not the case. He was writing to churches tyhat he had preached to, so he was orally saying this before he wrote it down. Also, it is clear that the other aspostles were preaching this message within days after they saw Jesus. If the people who heard the preaching, in the very city where the tomb was located wanted to refute it they could have gone there and the movement would have died, thus not leaving anything to write about. It didn't happen that way.

Thousands were converted, didn't happen- What do you base this statement on?

No mention of the aspostles- There is ample evidence that the aspostles lived, established churches, and were marytered for their faith. There is no dispute that these were real people. The people who wrote the dead sea scrolls were Essenes who were not followers of Christ, so why would they mention him or the aspostles?

Just because someone wrote it down doesn't make it true - True, but the fact that it is written down doesn't make it untrue either. What I have provided is the evidence that what is written down is in fact true and can be believed.

20

The truth of the Resurrection

by RWC in

at this time of easter christians celebrate the foundation of their faith, the resurrection of jesus christ.

without the resurrection, the rest of the christian faith is in vain, with it, the whole plan of god is fulfilled and validated.

in other words, if the resurrection occurred it proves the existence of god and his plan for salvation.. with that in mind, i offer the proof that the resurrection is a historical fact that be relied upon:.

RWC

At this time of Easter Christians celebrate the foundation of their faith, the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Without the resurrection, the rest of the Christian faith is in vain, with it, the whole plan of God is fulfilled and validated. In other words, if the resurrection occurred it proves the existence of God and his plan for salvation.

With that in mind, I offer the proof that the Resurrection is a historical fact that be relied upon:

1. Although we debate it here, there is no real debate among historians that Jesus was a real life person.

2. There is no real debate among historians that Jesus died on the cross and was buried in a tomb.

3. The Bible tells us that the tomb was empty in such a manner that , particularly for ancient texts, is historically reliable. For this I quote Michael Grant, a fellow at Trinity College, Cambridge and professor at Edinburgh University in his book Jesus an Historian's Review of the Gospels, "True, the discovery of the empty tomb is differently described by the various Gospels, but if we apply the same sort of criteria that we would apply toany other ancient literary sources, then the evidence is firm and plausible enough to necessitate the conlusion that the tomb was indeed found empty."

4. Paul writes in 1Corinthians 15, which is one of the earlist, if not the earlist writings about Jesus ( between A.D. 55-57), that the tomb was empty and that Jesus appeared to himself and to five hundred people some of which are still living at the time he wrote it. If this were not true, these folks could have clearly refuted it.

5. Even before Paul, there is some evidence that the Aspostles were preaching the resurrection immediately after it occurred as recorded in Acts.

6. The Gospels record a wealth of sightings of Jesus and physical interaction with him by multiple people, some individually and some in groups.

7. The circumstanital evidence in that the disciples, as eyewitnesses to the resurrection died for what they knew to be true, what they knew they saw and heard when they had interaction with the risen Lord. Far different then being willing to die for what they thought to be true, they were willing to die for something they had seen with their own eyes and touched with their own hands. There were elevan people, with no ulterior motives with nothing to gain and alot to lose who all agree that they observed something with their own eyes.

8. The skeptics of the day were converted upon experiencing the resurrected Christ. These include Paul who was Saul beforehand and James, who some claim is Jesus' brother.

9. Immediately after Jesus rose, within five weeks, over ten thousand Jews are following him and overthrowing century old social structures that they believe had been given to them by God. Those numbers continued to grow.

With all of this evidence, there is ample reason to believe that the resurrection of Jesus Christ is a true historical event which validates the Christian religion and for that matter, the Bible as a whole.

God Bless

13

I WENT TO EASTER MASS!!!

by voltaire in

jw
friends

i actually stepped into a catholic church for the first time in my life last sunday.

i friend of mine didn't have anyone to go with her, so i offered take her.

i went mostly out of curiousity.

RWC

After growing up in the Lutheran faith where everything was dry and cold, I started going to the Catholic church and found it very spiritual. I went on what they call an ACTS (Adoration, community, theology, and service) retreat which was a lifechanging experience. It was very spiritual and moving. One of the things that really moves me is that I know that whatever our parish is talking about that day, through the readings and the Gospel, I know that churches all over the world are also talking about. It gives you a real sense of community.

16

Ghosts

by RWC in

through one of the respopnses to old hippie's strange noise thread, a thought occurred to me.

do atheists or agnostics believe in ghosts?

and if you do, what do you think they are?

RWC

Through one of the respopnses to Old Hippie's strange noise thread, a thought occurred to me. Do Atheists or agnostics believe in ghosts? And if you do, what do you think they are?

37

Jesus - Michael or God?

by Dawn in

i've been researching this issue for myself - it's a doctrine i was still having problems understanding - is he or isn't he.... i came across a couple of interesting scriptures that i had not noticed before so thought i'd share them with ya'll:.

1) genesis 1:26 - then god said, "let us make man in our image..." i was taught as a jw that god was speaking to jesus (michael) here.

if that's true, and jesus/michael is an angel - that would mean that god created angels in his image also (since i refers to "image" as singular - it doesn't say images).

RWC

Willy Think you made some great points. It is the basis of the belief in the Trinity that Jesus is God. In the Christian church that debate occurred over 1500 years ago and landed on the creed that Jesus "was begotten not made, God from God, true God from true God, being one with the father by whom all things were made".

The doctrine of the Trinity precludes the notion that Jesus was at anytime Michael.

26

Holy Week Rocks

by RWC in

as some of you may know this week is the most holy week in the christian faith.

it is the week that jesus, true god and yet true man, willingly gave up his life including all of the pain that went with his cruel death, to save us from our sins.

he opened the door for all to be saved and have eternal life.

RWC

PeacefulPete, I have not yet figured out how to go back to old threads. I will post them in a new thread.

FunkyDerek,

Earlier I indicated that you are making a choice not to believe. Your last post makes that clear. That is your choice. I did not mention that Billions believed in God for the point of saying that makes it right, only to point out that the evidence that we say proves his existence is sufficient for billions of people. You want more more, or choose to ignore the evidence that is there.

From the Christian worldview we understand that man, through rebelling against God seperating us from him. The Bible says we are all born as sinners. Whether that is considered an original sin, or just the propensity to sin through our lifetime is not really the issue. You stated that you have wronged people in your past, so even if you were perfect until the first time you did that, you are now a sinner and have seperated yourself from God. Jesus, through his death and sacrifice has paid the price for that sin and reconciled you to God, if you believe in him. Giving you something that you do not deserve and can never earn is not arbitrary, it is loving and beautiful. But is not forced upon you, you make the choice.

I started this thread by extending the peace of this holy week to everyone and I repeat that now. God Bless to all of you.

26

Creation Story Contradiction

by JosephAlward in

the two different creation stories in genesis contradict each other in the matter of the order of the creation of man and vegetation.

in the first story, vegetation was created on the third day, and three days later man was created.

however, in the second creation story, there was no vegetation before man.

RWC

Elsewhere, the NIV places the creation of the animals in the past tense. "Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all of the beasts of the field." It doesn't say that he did that after he created Adam, only that he had done it at some point. It goes on to state that he brought them to Adam for him to name. So I do not see the contradiction.

26

Holy Week Rocks

by RWC in

as some of you may know this week is the most holy week in the christian faith.

it is the week that jesus, true god and yet true man, willingly gave up his life including all of the pain that went with his cruel death, to save us from our sins.

he opened the door for all to be saved and have eternal life.

RWC

Funkyderek,

When a person becomes a Christian he learns that it becomes his responsibility to forgive those who he has wronged and to ask for forgiveness for his own sins. He should be concerned with you forgiving him simply because he chose to believe. The true act of understanding the Christian faith is to understand that we are all sinners in need of forgiveness. By accepting the sacrifice of his Son, are sins are forgiven and we are reconciled with God.

You are wrong in your assumption that I believe without evidence. The evidence is more than suffcicient for me and billions around the globe. That evidence has been discussed in other threads throughout this board but if you want to engage it again I will be happy to do so.

Peacefulpete, I do not always agree with what you say, but I will say that I enjoy your posts. They are insightful and balanced. I do agree that if religion becomes more important that the ultimate goal of Christianity that we will have lost site of the true mission. That would be like tyelling an alchololic that his problem is his choice of Beer.

26

Holy Week Rocks

by RWC in

as some of you may know this week is the most holy week in the christian faith.

it is the week that jesus, true god and yet true man, willingly gave up his life including all of the pain that went with his cruel death, to save us from our sins.

he opened the door for all to be saved and have eternal life.

RWC

Funkyderek,

I don't see why this is so complicated. Surely you "get" it, but are choosing not to believe it. The plan is like this: God created a perfect world and in it he put man who he gave free will to follow God or not. Man chose not to follow God's directions and sin entered the world. This sin seperated us from God. All are born with this original sin and must be reconciled to God. Since there is nothing we can do through deed are good works to overcome this, God sent his son to pay the sacrifice in our place. Now through believing in him we can be reconciled to God. It was the ultimate sacrifice done in our place.

I do not believe that you are so arrogant to think that you have done nothing wrong in your life. That you have never wronged anyone or hurt their feelings, yelled without cause, said something hurtful, or in anyway acted in such a manner to hurt someone else. That would be classified as a sin. So even if you do not want to believe in the original sin, you have fallen short of the perfection that God would require but for the perfection of Jesus.

Now you must be honest that you have made the choice not to belive. You hav been exposed to religious training and the Bible, the evidence of God's existence and his word has been given to you. You chose not to belive under the quise of you need more evidence.