Posts by RWC

48

The Bible - inerrant word of God?

by Mr Bean in

the deeper you look into, clearer picture is emerging that god had not any input in these writings at all.

there are many verses, even whole passages which exist in some editions and in some they do not.. he evidently didn't supervised writers or copyists and we have plenty of evidences of that, his name in nt included.. since gospels of peter or thomas are not regarded as valuable and important documentations of jesus' life, only one conclusion comes to my mind.. as a moral guide the bible is an excellent book, written by... men!.

highly recommended!.

RWC

Dutchie, For all of the passages you quote, I could equally quote passages that say bad things will happen to men when they disobey God. For example, your quote in Genesis about childbirth fails to include the curse on men that he will toil hard all his life and than he will die. To me that does not sound like unequal treatment.

I can also quote passages that show woman are treated with respect and dignity. For example:

Proverbs 31:10 -31 A wife of Noble character She is worth far more than rubies; She is clothed with strength and dignity; She speaks with wisdom; Her children arise and call her blessed; her husband also and he praises her; Give her the reward she has earned and let her works bring her praise at the city gate

John 8:4- -11 - Woman caught in the act of Adultry and Jesus says that whoever is without sin let him cast the first stone. He saves her life and than does not condemn her

1Peter 3:7- Husbands in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner(meaning physically weaker) as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life

Hebrews 13:4- Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure. for God will judge the adultrer and the sexually immoral (This applies equally to men and women)

Ephesians 5:25- Husbands love your wives just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her....In the same way husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself... For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and become united to his wife for the two will become one flesh

Genesis 2:24- For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh

Genesis 24:66- Isaac brought her into the tent of his mother Sarah and he married Rebekah. So she became his wife and he loved her

Exodus 20:17 Thou shall not covet your neighbors wife

Your examples must be read in their context. For example Isaiah 3:16 is referring to the wrath of God over the entire people of Isreal in part for their treatment of the poor. It it referring to the women having jewels and finer things at the expense of not taking care of the poor. It also says that the men will be killed. Matthew 18:25 is in the middle of a parable wher the end result is that the king took pity on the man and wiped out his debt. That same man failed to take pity on someone else who owed him less and the man was punished for his lack of compassion. It is not a lesson on how to treat women.

A full reading of the Bible and its teachings reflect that women are treated with dignity, respect and love. They are punished just like men for their wrongdoing and are praised for their faithfullness. They are to be treated by thier husbands with unselfishness and they are to be protected and admired. How can that be bad?

God Bless

48

The Bible - inerrant word of God?

by Mr Bean in

the deeper you look into, clearer picture is emerging that god had not any input in these writings at all.

there are many verses, even whole passages which exist in some editions and in some they do not.. he evidently didn't supervised writers or copyists and we have plenty of evidences of that, his name in nt included.. since gospels of peter or thomas are not regarded as valuable and important documentations of jesus' life, only one conclusion comes to my mind.. as a moral guide the bible is an excellent book, written by... men!.

highly recommended!.

RWC

As for the Bible's treatment of woman, I disagree with the view that it treats woman as a second class citizen. Jesus's teachings uplifted women and showed them tremendous respect. First, his Mother Mary is considered holy and he was obedient to her. His first miracle was done at her insistence. He took steps to take care of her as he was dying on the cross. Second, he tells men that they must be true to their wives, be faithful to them, not to commit adultry and to love them as much as he loved the church ( in other words, be ready to give their lives for them). Third, the first people who saw Jesus after he rose from the dead and who are given the task of spreading the news are women. Fourth, he protected the woman who as cought committing adultry from being stoned to death which was the law of the time.Fifth, he showed respect and love to the woman of the day who were shunned by society such as Mary Magdalene and the woman at the well.

The Old Testament also includes women in heroic roles such as Rachel, Sarah and Esther. They are protrayed as women of virtue and are shown tremendous respect.

To say that the Bible mistreats women is to ignore all of these aspects of its teachings.

God Bless

48

The Bible - inerrant word of God?

by Mr Bean in

the deeper you look into, clearer picture is emerging that god had not any input in these writings at all.

there are many verses, even whole passages which exist in some editions and in some they do not.. he evidently didn't supervised writers or copyists and we have plenty of evidences of that, his name in nt included.. since gospels of peter or thomas are not regarded as valuable and important documentations of jesus' life, only one conclusion comes to my mind.. as a moral guide the bible is an excellent book, written by... men!.

highly recommended!.

RWC

The Bible is more than merely a moral code, it is more than a book in the same line with Aesop's fables, it is more than a history book. Yet at the same time it is all of these and much more. I believe that it is the word of God as directed by the Holy Spirit to man. Being Catholic, I also believe that God has spoken to man through traditions and that not all that Jesus taught was written down so that traditions that do not contradict the Bible's teachings are also holy.

The Bible cannot be logically compared to the Book of Morman. The Bible was written by many men over thousands of years. It chronicles the histroy of a people from a theological perspective. It's accuracy has been proven through archeology and through the test of time. The Jewish people, who throughout their history have strived to preserve their culture and their past viewed the Old Testament writings as accurate. Joesph Smith wrote the Book of Morman by himself and than pronounced it to the world. Archeology has proven time and time again that it is in error. It was not written at or near the time of the alleged events, instead it was claimed to have been dictated to him by the angel about events that took place thousands of years before.

I agree that before anyone who thinks they are a skeptic and dismisses the Bible out of hand, they should read Lee Stobel's "The Case for Christ". He raises alot of good points and makes even the strongest skeptic pause. He himself was an atheist trying to disprove the existence of Jesus when he began his research. The journey led him to believe.

As for the idea that many years passed before the teachings of Jesus were written down, this cannot be looked at from the perspective of our immediate society. It must be looked at from the perspective of the times. In terms of ancient history, the fact that we have writings about the life and teachings of Jesus a mere thirty years after his death is remarkable. For example, the first bibliography about Mohammud (sp) was written over three hundred years after his death. An equal time span passed before there was a bibliography about Alexander the Great. Jesus walked the earth when most people were illiterate and when history and teaching was passed down orally in a very accurate manner. The reason that people started writing about Jesus so soon is a testament to his life and its profound impact. The thought is that men who witnessed the events or who learned from men who were witnesses wrote down what they knew before they died off.

Also, the New Testament is one of the most throughly preserved ancient wrtings that we have. There are over 5000 pieces of New Testament writings that date back to the first and second century. For ancient writings that is a remarkable number. For example, the earlist version we have of Homer is dated hundreds of years after it was written. Yet people do not questions it is an accurate version of the original.

God Bless

29

The Sins of the Father: Bible Error

by JosephAlward in

joe alward .

the bible contradicts itself in the matter of punishing children for the sins of their fathers.

in one place is says that it is strictly forbidden, but in another the lord speaks of slaughtering sons for the sins of their forefathers, and in yet another place the lord orders the murder of suckling babes.

RWC

Rem, that is not what I said or meant. I was simply pointing out that Joseph was attempting to compare two different things and call the differences a contradiction.

29

The Sins of the Father: Bible Error

by JosephAlward in

joe alward .

the bible contradicts itself in the matter of punishing children for the sins of their fathers.

in one place is says that it is strictly forbidden, but in another the lord speaks of slaughtering sons for the sins of their forefathers, and in yet another place the lord orders the murder of suckling babes.

RWC

The Deuteronomy quote is clearly directed to a set of laws to be followed by the nation of Israel. It was an end to clan revenge that was the norm. It is justice by humans towards humans. Read it in the context of the the rest of the verses that come before it and after it.

It cannot be compared with justice as delivered by God as in the other portions you have noted. What you have shown is no contradiction at all.

God Bless

24

Jacob's Branches and Genetics: Bible Error

by JosephAlward in

joe alward.

about a year ago i raised this issue of the bible-writers' apparent belief that the color of one's offspring is determined in part by what you're looking at while you're mating.

we didn't obtain then what i considered a satisfactory resolution of this problem, so i'm presenting it once again for the forum's consideration:.

RWC

Joesph A., Where in the Genesis account does it say that it is intended to be a genetics lesson on the mating habits of Goats and Sheep? The purpose of the account is Jacob's way, with God's help to keep Laban from continuing to cheat him from his wages. It is not God saying in order to have speckeled sheep you must use striped branches. The lesson that is trying to be taught by God is not one of science but that he has shown favor to Jacob as his chosen people. Don't try to create a problem by reading more into the account than what is there.

God Bless

31

An Eye for an Eye: Bible Error

by JosephAlward in

many months ago i offered the "eye for an eye" conflict as evidence that the bible cannot be trusted to provide non-contradictory moral guidance.

since that time many new people have joined this forum, so i present this bible "difficulty" once again:.

scripture teaches that one should destroy one's enemies, and take an eye for an eye: "show no pity: life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot.

RWC

Joesph, It is nice to see you again. I have to agree with those that say there is no contradiction in what you present. I notice that in alot of your arguments you take portions out of context and take passages literally when they are clearly not intended to be taken as so.

You can point to alot of passages in the Old Test. where prophets are saying that God has delivered Isreal from the hands of its enemies, that thousands of people were killed apparently with the approval of God. God protecting his chhosen people from their enemies and those who would want to destroy them and ultimatley his plan for our salvation does not mean that God has changed his commandment to us that we should not kill.

Jesus' explaination that you should turn the other cheek is not a contradiction of the teaching in Deut. Both are teaching that evil should not be tolerated. On the one hand if a person comes into court and falsly testifies about someone else, as an example to the community punish that man severly. This will be done as an example to others and root out evil from Isreal. That does not mean in your daliy lives return evil with evil because the authority to impose punishment has been given to the courts. Jesus was saying in your daily lives when someone treats you bad, turn to him in love. This too will show that evil does not have its intended result and allows you to show the love and compassion that is needed.

Jesus was also not reversing the teachings in Ecclesiastes. He was having people focus on the bigger picture of their salvation. Living life to its fullness in happiness and with a joyful heart becuase of the blessings that have been given to you, as explained in Ecclesiates, is not contradicted by teaching that in doing so, don't lose sight of your salvation and what it takes to get there. If you live for riches, you are not following Christ. If you will not give up your life for him, you will not have salvation. That is the teachings of those passages you refer to. To say that Jesus hated family is not in keeping with the rest of his teachings. To say that he did not mourn or feel saddness when loved ones died ignores his miracles in raising people from the dead and dieing himself for us.

I think you are too smart not to recognize what you are doing when you raise these supposed contradictions. I think you secretly agree with those that argue with you and can recognize the shallowness of your position and are just seeking a reaction. If so, keep it up. Your arguments have forced me to examine things and have strengthened my faith. Thank you. God Bless

36

Was the catholic church an Enemy of scripture?

by gumby in

does the print in bold type remind you guys of another organisation you can think of??????????

was the catholic church an avowed enemy of scripture

was it really fear of false doctrine that caused the church to object to the scriptures being in the hands of the laity?

RWC

Gumby, to answer your questions, I don't think that everyone should become Catholic. There is a benefit to different ideas. However, the world would be a better place if everone followed the doctrine of the Chrisitan Church the way that Jesus taught it. With its emphasis on grace anad mercy and walking daily with Christ, the Catholic Church is the closest I have found to those ideals.

God Bless

36

Was the catholic church an Enemy of scripture?

by gumby in

does the print in bold type remind you guys of another organisation you can think of??????????

was the catholic church an avowed enemy of scripture

was it really fear of false doctrine that caused the church to object to the scriptures being in the hands of the laity?

RWC

Kenneson,

Thank you for your thoughtful responses in defense of Catholic Doctrine.

To the others who attack the Catholic faith,

There is no argument that the Catholic church has had some bad times and has driftied from its mission during its history. Some parts of its history cannot be defended and can only be called horrible. The wonder of the Catholic Church is that it has always returned to its roots for the past two thousand years. Even more so now.

It is also very diverse. The Catholic Church in America is very differnet from the Cathoic Church in Mexico. It is also a very tolerant Church of other religions, unlike those that attack it.

As for Mary, you can be a Catholic and not believe everything the Church says about Mary. However, I find their devotion to her very comforting. She is seen as the mother of the Church and someone who shows mercy and comfort to those in need, just llike your mother on earth. Jesus revered her even at his death when he instructed others to take care of her. He listened to her at Caanan when she asked him to help at the wedding even though he said it wasn't his time and performed his first miracle.

As for Catholic tradition, this concept is very misunderstood. Tradition cannot contradict anything in the scriptures. It must be supported in the scriptrues and most have their roots in the very early church.

The Catholic church is a truly apostolic church that trace its roots back to the very time after Christ. And even though it has wandered at times and engaged in horrible acts at times, it has been the caretaker of the faith and of Chrisitianity for close to 2000 years. Well over one billion people belong to the church worldwide and it continues to grow.

God Bless

39

GOD LOVES YOU -- GOD IS LOVE!

by UnDisfellowshipped in

because his works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

he who doesn't love his brother remains in death.

1st john 3:23: this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his son, jesus christ, and love one another, even as he commanded.. 1st john 3:24: he who keeps his commandments remains in him, and he in him.

RWC

Farkel, with all due respect, your opinion on the Bible is simply your opinion. The Bible is and always will be relevant. The problems people faced in Biblical times are no different then we face today. The solutions outlined in the Bible work as well then as they do now. The problem is not what the Bible teaches, but how some people want to avoid its teachings in this day of relative morals and how some people distort those teachings for their own gain. For example, your claim that the Bible is anti woman is not true. Jesus showed more respect for woman than any teacher before him and taught that a man must love his wife as He loved the church. In other words, with complete devotion and willingness to lay down his life for her. He preached against adultery for both sexes, saved a women from being stoned while the man who committed the sin with her was no where to be found, gave insturctions while he was dying to take care of his mother, etc...

The morals taught in the Bible and the lessons taught through those whose lives are detailed in the Bible can be very helpful today.The overall theme of the Bible is one of love, repentance for sins, the power of forgiveness and how to live a rightous life for yourself and your fellow man. People face the consequences of their misdeeds and when they repent they feel and enjoy the life giving forgiveness that is offerd to them. With all of the hate and despair in the world today, what isn't relevant about a book that contains the answers to allievate the suffering and shows the way to stop it all if we would simply follow it? The problem is not the book or its teachings, but with those who chose not to follow it.