long, long time lurker and great fan of the site - first time poster.
i am not sure if i am truly a lurker since that implies i am apostate-curious.
in fact, i have been mentally out completely for a long time, but still physically in like many of you.
Mag servant has got even easier recently as now the magsx are not sorted into publisher orders. There's just a pile and you take what you want as you need it. This is so that people don't have a massive order which then does not get used.
So the mag servant just unpacks the delivery pretty much.
my son recently out of the coast guard, in training for.
supervisor,(a program set up by business companies for.
returning veterans).
Sorry Desirous - I forgot the obvious #1 method :-/
my son recently out of the coast guard, in training for.
supervisor,(a program set up by business companies for.
returning veterans).
@cold steel - my previous tome highlights the inside view of the selection process but in answer to your other questions....
Do they get paid? No.
What are the advantages? Depends. Some are genuinely humble and want to help their brothers. For some it's a power trip. It does demand respect and carry a level of prestige as well of course.
How would you go about becoming one? You would have to be baptised and pretty exemplary for many years. The fast track way is to come in, pioneer for a couple of years, go to a school and serve in your assignment for another couple of years or so. You would have to do a stint as a ministerial servant for a while as well. I don't know of any one who have become an elder in less than 5 years from being baptised and that really is fast tracking. Any form of full time service for several years is the key to fast tracking it.
The elders operate as a body. They have a chairman known as the coordinator of the body of elders ("COBE"). The role is not meant to carry any extra privilage/status but there's no accounting for personal power trips!
The body report to the society and are monitored by the circuit overseer who comes every six months.
ok, so this week the bh was from ezekiel.
the brother starts by talking about a prophecy of egypt being laid desolate for 40 years.
he then says there is no evidence in secular history that this happened.
Ok, so this week the BH was from Ezekiel. The brother starts by talking about a prophecy of Egypt being laid desolate for 40 years. He then says there is no evidence in secular history that this happened. He then says that it must have occured - how do we know? Jehovah said it would happen and it's in the bible.
He then goes on to say that this shows that everything Jehovah says comes true. He then says that we have to be bible students looking at the deep, deep things in the bible. He mentioned the "new light" from the WT last week - shame his "deep" bible study did not show up that the new light is in fact old light blinking back on again.
I almost put my hand through my head.
my son recently out of the coast guard, in training for.
supervisor,(a program set up by business companies for.
returning veterans).
@cold steel - becoming an elder is generally about how much of company man you are.
There are scriptual qualifications for an overseer and these set a reasonably high bar in terms of being an example and having freedom of speech.
In WTS land however, it goes from being about your underlying attitude and desire to be a loving shepherd but still a humble fellow worker with your brothers and sisters into how much FS you do. This is why young guys who have pioneered, done Bethel, done other WTS schools etc. fast track it to being an elder. If you are regular and keen in FS, regular at meetings, try and push yourself into the centre of the cong, answer lots, demonstrate you are keen to follow WTS rules etc. then you are "reaching out" and stand a reasonable chance of being appointed.
This still does not guarentee it however as there is still a very political element. If you have a vocal relative already on the BoE then you have a better chance. If you are percieved as a bit of a loose cannon or down on your hours then you are reducing your chances.
When brothers are considered for appointment as a MS or elder the BoE look at what the person is doing (esp FS - the record card is key here - and meetings) and discuss it. This gives ample opportunity for those who don't like the person to put the boot in basically. It's easy to look at a record card and raise concerns about the number of hours someone does, especially if they expect the congregation average + 4 hours for family study as an absolute minimum for a family man. It's easy to say the individual has been late for a few meetings and is not exemplary. It's easy to suggest that someone's answers are not deep enough. It's easy to suggest that because the brother has his own business, works in an office or has to travel on business sometimes that this might mean he is not really putting kingdom interests first. It's easy to suggest that the brother has not been in Sunday service for ages. It's easy to suggest that since the brother recently moved into a larger house/bought a new car/went on holiday twice last year then perhaps he is materialistic and showing where his heart really lies. It's easy to suggest that since the brother used an ipad at the meeting instead of carrying a ton of books then he is demonstrating a "showy display of one's means of life". The list goes on and on.
If you are chummy with enough elders however then the boot does not get put in, or if it does then it gets shouted down pretty quickly.
Once you are an elder however it's pretty hard to get removed. All of the same things that are used to prevent a recommendation are not used to reguarly measure those already serving. True, if an elder got really slack over a long period of time then something may be said but I can't recall the last deletion for anything like the reasons above.
Howere, there is a real move in the WTS to get the BoE to come down hard on any issues related to loyalty and this is the one area where
For example, it's a dead nono now to show any desire to put family relationships above the WTS. There have been several deletions that I know about in our area over the past couple of years. All for elders attending weddings of relatives (particuarly children). This is regardless of if the child is DF/DA/inactive. If they are inactive, even for years and years and get married to a non JW then it's marrying out of the lord and the new Flock book leaves little room for manouvre.
The elders are now much more afraid to operate as free thinkers, show compassion or latitude and use reasonableness. Every slightly contensious issue is handled with no common sense. People are treated harshly and then it's left up to the CO to try and sort out. Act now and ask questions later is par for the course it seems.
Anyway, that's my take on after 20 years of seeing how the body works from the outside with 15 of those thinking about tryng to get in. Call me cynical but that's what I see. Other's may say it's holy spirit that directs appointments but I'll let you judge that for yourself.
so... i am coming to the conclusion that pretty much all of the doctrinal stuff that i have believed for 25/30 years is built on a house of cards and it's about to come crashing down.
question is what do i replace it with?.
my intellectual head says that that whole thing is junk and there is almost certainly no god at all.
Thanks for the comments. As I said, I don't feel an urgent need to replace the "truth" with anything else in particular, not least as I am still in process of deconstructing a deeply ingrained faith.
It just seems pretty obvious to me that if you unravel the story of universal sovereignty, mankind's fall from grace, the ransom, restoration of a purpose on the earth etc. then you end up with an impotent God and a very large hole in logic about what the purpose of it all is if you have a super powerful being out there. I don't mean any offence to those that maintain a belief in God after leaving the WTS, after all time and perspective make a big difference to what conclusions one may come to to, but that's the route my brain is taking right now.
If logic leads me to develop an agnostic or even atheistic viewpoint then surely you have to look at things in a very pragmatic way and just say "it is what is it", try and be a decent person and not waste mental energy trying to find deeper meaning to life.
no matter what the situation is.....my children are now on a kick of saying "jehovah doesn't like that".
birthdays?
jehovah doesn't like that.
Not an easy situation at all but I would concur with the other posters. Even as fully in JWs my wife and I have very very rarely used the "Jehovah doesn't like x" line (I'd love to say never but I would be lying) because we have always thought that you need to base decsions on principles. We have also always thought that that line of reasoning has a very finite shelf life 'cos very soon kids start asking "why". As they get older you will have little or no real control over your kids so they have to be able to base the choices they make on solid principles.
To me it has always been the mental equivilent of smacking - and that was way before I started on my spiral of questioning!
i really think it is a misconception to say leaving the jw's will destroy you and/or your family.. .
many people here stay as jw's despite posting very opposing views and beliefs.
i understand the difficulty of family reprisal.
I don't know that you can call it the same way for everyone.
Firstly, it will take different people different amounts of time to do what research they want to do and get to an inner acceptance that the conclusions they come to are worth making a stand for.
Secondly, the family and social situations will be different for different people. Some will have less ties than others. Some ties may be harder to break or perhaps the threat of shunning on even a fade is high. If married then the spouse may be anywhere on a scale of going out alongside with the person right to so upset it breaks up a marriage.
Thirdly, the attitude to simply stopping regardless of consequences or trying to plan a slow fade will be different and therefore the timings will vary.
Finally, some may simply take the view that fully leaving is simply not worth it and they can continue as witnesses on the sidelines. Perhaps they see less harm in it than you do?
so... i am coming to the conclusion that pretty much all of the doctrinal stuff that i have believed for 25/30 years is built on a house of cards and it's about to come crashing down.
question is what do i replace it with?.
my intellectual head says that that whole thing is junk and there is almost certainly no god at all.
Hi @scully - I've read it and "The Greatest Show on Earth". Dawkins has very convincing arguments but he also has a very specific agenda which I think sometimes gets in the way of his objectivity.
Interestingly enough, however, it does raise a side point that has contributed to my lack of confidence in the WTS. The fact that arguments that did seem to deflect evolutionary thinking 30 years ago are all but useless against the weight of modern science means that belief in the Genesis account requires even more blind faith than previously required. The WTS has not responded to this. All the current series of articles on amazing functions in nature along with all the recent creation literature has simply said "here's a really amazing and complex system in nature - don't you think this can only have come about through creation?". The WTS has not presented any quality scientifically based argument against evolution for years. I can only assume that this is because the only "scientific" evidence against common evolutionary science is presented by quacks and frauds.
It's all about blind faith now....
so... i am coming to the conclusion that pretty much all of the doctrinal stuff that i have believed for 25/30 years is built on a house of cards and it's about to come crashing down.
question is what do i replace it with?.
my intellectual head says that that whole thing is junk and there is almost certainly no god at all.
So... I am coming to the conclusion that pretty much all of the doctrinal stuff that I have believed for 25/30 years is built on a house of cards and it's about to come crashing down. Question is what do I replace it with?
My intellectual head says that that whole thing is junk and there is almost certainly no God at all. If there were then all the questions that "the truth" is meant to answer is there like what's God's plan, why is there so much suffering in the world etc.
If there is no God however it's quite a mind bend to get your head from a place of hope/expectation to a place of this world is what it is and the best thing we can do is try and be nice people.
I know some people seem to have found a middle ground where the focus is on the compassionate nature of the Christ but I don't think you can really seperate Christ from the rest of the Bible and, by implication, his father and the wider picture. Sure, Jesus set a pretty nice pattern to follow in many ways but I see people all around me being nice people without any kind of faith. If you bring it down to a philisophical base then there is very little to raise Jesus above many other good people through history. If you keep the aspect of a divine relationship in there then you're back to questions about the point of creation - something that the "truth" had a pretty decent story for.
Talking with a trusted friend they were trying to reason that ones we had known that had drifted away were not significantly happier or less confused but that's not the point. It's not about finding another meaning to life. Don't get me wrong, I feel no burning need to replace the "truth" with anything at all. It's just I can't quite get my head round all the implications of there being no God at all yet it actually feels like the most logical conclusion.
