Posts by Sangdigger

78

Calvinism

by Calvinist02 in

the basic 5 points of calvinism.

1. total depravity- all men are sinners.

we are totally corrupt and wicked.

Sangdigger

Doctrine #3 is just as scriptural as the other 4 doctrines. First of all, as you might know, you have to interpret scripture IN LIGHT OF SCRIPTURE.

hooberus, the first scripture you quoted was Heb. 2:9 "that he should taste death for every man". First of all, notice it doesnt use the word "MEN" but "MAN". But dont stop there. Read on to the very next verse. It says "...in bringing MANY SONS UNTO GLORY....." it doesnt say ALL MEN or ALL SONS. This explains Matt. 1:21 "And thou shalt call his name Jesus, for he shall save HIS PEOPLE FROM THEIR SINS."

Once again, i quote John 17:9 "..I pray NOT FOR THE WORLD, BUT FOR THEM WICH THOU HAST GIVEN ME,....." Simply put, to say that Jesus died for all men everywhere is to say he refused to pray for some of them.

Then you quoted John 2:2 "and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." Now who was this letter adressed to? And who was John? He was a Jew, and as you know, jews claimed the title of his ELECT nation, the only ones, who by their bloodline would recieve salvation. So when Jesus told Nicademus in John chapter 3 that God so loved the world, this would include more than just Jews. It would include people from all walks of life. The same is being said here. The world not only denotes alot of folks, but Gentiles as well. Non-Jews.

I believe another way of looking at this particular scripture is this way: Christs shed blood was sufficient enough to cover the world, or all men. But is efficient for Gods elect. Basically, Christs blood will be directly applied to his elect, but was sufficient to cover the entire worlds, should they all repent. But man left to himself will not repent, hence man is responsible for his own sin. But Gods elect will repent in time, because God the holy spirit, quickens them.

Case in point: The Pharisees and Pilate, and Judas, those who crucified Christ. It had to happen. God didnt simply sit around waiting for someone to get together and betray and kill his son. It was foretold in Psalms 41:9 that one of Jesus own friends would betray him hundreds of years before he even came to earth. He used mans wickedness to accomplish his purpose. Are these men responsible since it was ordained that this should happen, and in a sense were pawns, used by God to accomplish his will? You bet they are. God simply left them to themself, and they followed their natural couse of action.....Wickedness. It was already in their heart. And God used it to accomplish his will.

"Jacob have i loved, and Esau have i hated" Another classic example of election. Rom.9:11"For the children being not yet born, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of HIM THAT CALLETH" Jacobs very name means "cheat" or "supplanter" God definately did not chose him based on something likeable in him. Paul would have never posed the question in verse 14 of that same chapter if he thought people would take this lying down. "What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid!! For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom i will have mercy"

All im saying here, is check something out thoroughly, using the whole of scripture before dismissing it as mans doctrine. Mans doctrine almost always glorifies himself. The 5 points of Calvinism give ALL the Glory to God.

78

Calvinism

by Calvinist02 in

the basic 5 points of calvinism.

1. total depravity- all men are sinners.

we are totally corrupt and wicked.

Sangdigger

I'd say the fact that God chose to save some when he couldve let the entire human race die out due to Adams fall is an act of Love and Mercy. Do you think you can actually please God by what you do or say? I hope not, or i'd never get to glory. My thought process alone would knock me out of it. Just thinking about fornication for example is the same as commiting it according to Jesus. Thats why Jesus is made FOR US Wisdom, righteousness, sanctification and redemption. All the things i cant be myself.

If Gods chosing has nothing to do with our deeds, or anything in us, then why would he unchose us? IF he simply choses us by according to the pleasure of his own will, and his will is unmutable, and he never changes, then we're secure. Jesus himself said no one could pluck them out of his or his fathers hand. I'd say thats pretty secure. Another very important question is WHO GETS THE GLORY? If i get to glory based on my deeds, and being good, then i have something to glory about to God. But if he does all the saving, he gets the glory. Romans 4:2 , 2Cor 10:17 Paul says God forbid i should glory, save in the cross of Christ. ICor 1:29 "That NO FLESH SHOULD GLORY IN HIS PRESENCE"

17

Jehovah's Witness & The Matrix

by Yizuman in

jw
friends

if the wtbts and jws existed in the matrix and they all suddenly were unplugged from the matrix, how would they react seeing the "real world"?

oh yeah, anyone think agent smith could be a perfect "elder"??

edited by - yizuman on 5 december 2002 17:24:4.

Sangdigger

LOL!!! Aint that the truth!( no pun intended)

I knew it would be a matter of time before someone posted on this. I think alot of ex-jws were thinking about this after seeing the movie.

78

Calvinism

by Calvinist02 in

the basic 5 points of calvinism.

1. total depravity- all men are sinners.

we are totally corrupt and wicked.

Sangdigger

Psalm 65:4 "Blessed is the man whom thou chooses and causes to approach unto thee" A Soveriegn grace preacher once said, "Knowing what you know now, and where you are (trusting in Christ) if you could go back and change one thing about your life, you wouldnt change one thing" this is because we know that all things are working together for good to them who love God and are the called according to his purpose. Rom.8:29

Someone asked earlier on this post "How can i know if i am in?, or if God chose me? My anwser to that would be to look at your life. If you came out of a destructive cult like the JW's, but have not given up on the bible, and trust Jesus as Gods only provision for salvation, and have a thirst for the truth in scripture, then i'd say there's a good chance your where you are because of Gods calling.

Remember the story of Joseph? When confronting his brothers years later, who had sold him into slavery, he told them that they had meant it for evil, but God had meant it for good. Gen. 45:5-8 He said it was not you who sent me here, but God. Then look at the whole picture, Joseph was put in a very high position, and was put in charge of all of the food in egypt, when the famine came, he was in the right place to take care of his family, and this caused Jacob and the family to move to egypt, setting up the start of the Isrealite nation and thier foretold bondage. Here we have God working all things after the counsil of his own will. His very name=Yaweh="he causes to be"

As far as election is concerned, to me it is a very comforting doctrine. If God be for you, who can be againts you? (Rom 8:31) As Swedish chef pointed out, NONE is righteous, NO NOT ONE. Then clearly NO ONE from Gods Holy standpoint deserves to be saved. We not only died physically from Adams fall, we died SPIRITUALLY that is why scripture uses the word DEAD over and over to describe our condition. A dead man has no life, no ability to come to God left to his or her self. Eph.2:1

In the Garden, God told Adam, "In THE DAY that you eat thereof, you shall DIE. So Adam not only died later physically, but died that very day spiritually.

All of those chosen by God were Redeemed by Christ on Cavalry, and eventually, one by one called by God by the means he ordained= the preaching of the Gospel. 1Cor. 1:21, 2Tim 1:9

As far as John 3:16 "For God so loved the world" Here is used the greek word kosmos. This denotes "Arrangement, beauty, world" The greek word for habitable earth is "tebel" or for Land, earth, "erets" The greek word "kosmos" wich is used in Jn.3:16 can also be used of ungodly people. John 15:18 "If the world hates you....." John 14:19 "A little while, and the world seeth me no more....." Another greek word used for world is "oikoumene" meaning habitable earth, land. Luke 2:1 "A decree went out that all the world should be taxed" and Acts 17:6 "These that have turned the world upside down..." Basically the word "world" denotes a whole lot of folks.

Jesus makes it plain that he loved the sheep, and came to save them. In John 17:9 he says "I pray for them: I PRAY NOT FOR THE WORLD, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine." If Jesus came to die for all men everywhere, the entire world, why would he ever make a statement like that?

To sum it up, in my opinion, the five basic doctrines of calvinism harmonize with scripture unbelievably well, and together, fit like a glove, and compliment one another. But this does not dissolve man of his responsibility. God commands all men everywhere to repent. The invitation is open to all who will come and drink of lifes water. However, only the elect will come. A man once asked Charles Spurgeon, a famous nineteenth century sovereign grace preacher if he could tell if someone was elect. He commented that if God put a yellow streak down every elect persons back, it would be a simple matter of raising someones shirt tails to see, but in heaven on the outside of the door it will read "Anyone who is thirsty, come on in" and on the other side of the door it says "Elected from the foundation of the world"

Nuff said for now

32

JW's deny jesus as being king before 1914

by heathen in

i ventured to the local hall here last week and when time to discuss the watchtower a guy made a comment that the wt only believes that jesus became king in 1914.now i have read the bible and do have an interest in what it says despite my handle on this site and i have noticed that the apostles made clear that christ was king of heaven and earth in their day at least until the last apostle died .this just looks like typical crap that would only lead me to further arguement with them and in the end being demonized .anyone else with thoughts on the subject ?

?

Sangdigger

heathen, that of course is possible, especially if you hold to the belief of soul sleep. And of course another scripture JW's use to support this (Jesus not existing for 2 days untill his ressurection) is when he says to Martha, touch me not, for i have not yet ascended to the Father. However, several points worthy of consideration are these: 1) Jesus recieved a glorified body when he was raised. When he made this comment to Mary and the women, he had not been to heaven yet in his glorified body, but he could have been there in the spirit. 2) 1Peter 1:21 says that after being put to death in the flesh, he was made alive by the spirit: by wich also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison. The question is when did he preach to spirits in prison? As a spirit himself? or in a glorified body after his bodily ressurection? 3)Why would he say just before dying, (talking to the Father) into your hands, i commend my spirit? (of course, now i'm getting into the issue of the immortal soul) but would it make sense to ask his father to recieve or commend his breath? The JW's say that the word soul always refers to the life force or breath (wich in some cases it does) Remember Stephen said the same thing, "Lord Jesus, recieve my spirit" 4) Another point to consider is why did Jesus say "tear this temple down, and in 3 days I wil raise it up. How could Jesus himself raise up his own body. But if he existed as a spirit, and was with the thief, he could raise up a glorified body, and then inhabit it.

Just some thought prevoking stuff. I enjoyed this post. I wish there could be more like it.

32

JW's deny jesus as being king before 1914

by heathen in

i ventured to the local hall here last week and when time to discuss the watchtower a guy made a comment that the wt only believes that jesus became king in 1914.now i have read the bible and do have an interest in what it says despite my handle on this site and i have noticed that the apostles made clear that christ was king of heaven and earth in their day at least until the last apostle died .this just looks like typical crap that would only lead me to further arguement with them and in the end being demonized .anyone else with thoughts on the subject ?

?

Sangdigger

Just an afterthought on Matt. 16:28. The dubs say this was reffering to the 2 apostles who saw the transfiguration, and the glorified Jesus. I think maybe Jesus was reffering to his post ressurection, when he was indeed glorified in what most bible scholars believe was a glorified body, and given the keys of the kingdom.

Then there is Luke 23:42, when the thief was hanging next to Jesus and said: "Jesus remember me WHEN you come into YOUR KINGDOM. He replied "Tuly i tell you, TODAY you will be with me in paradise". Yeah, Yeah, i know the WTS interpretation on this scipture. Putting the coma after TODAY. I've looked at this for some time, and discovered the phrase "Truly i tell you" or "Verily i say unto thee" ( The greek phrase "amen soi lego" ) appears 74 times in the New Testament, and is always used as a introductory statement. Much like the Old Testament phrase "Thus says the LORD" Out of 74 times this is used in the NWT, this is the only the time they place a break after it. Of course we know the reason behind this. If all other translations are correct, then the immortality issue would be proven (at least by Jesus), and Jesus would that day be in HIS KINGDOM. Showing his AUTHORITY at that point.

Jim

32

JW's deny jesus as being king before 1914

by heathen in

i ventured to the local hall here last week and when time to discuss the watchtower a guy made a comment that the wt only believes that jesus became king in 1914.now i have read the bible and do have an interest in what it says despite my handle on this site and i have noticed that the apostles made clear that christ was king of heaven and earth in their day at least until the last apostle died .this just looks like typical crap that would only lead me to further arguement with them and in the end being demonized .anyone else with thoughts on the subject ?

?

Sangdigger

Heathen, i distinctively remember the WTS saying the same thing when i used to go. (that was 10 yrs ago) and it was policy then that Jesus did not "take over" the throne untill 1914. Later, when i started studying the bible myself, the same thought came up to me, when i read scriptures like Matt. 28:18 "ALL AUTHORITY in HEAVEN and on EARTH has been given me. I would take that to mean in a present tense. The greek word used here is "exousia" wich means "authority" or "privelege". John 17:2 also uses the same greek word when Jesus looked up to heaven and said: "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son so that the Son may glorify you, since you have given him AUTHORITY over all people, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him." ( RSV) The KJV says AUTHORITY over ALL FLESH. Collosians 2:10 says Jesus is the head of every ruler and authority. (The same greek word is used)

If ONACRUSE is correct about WTS explaining this authority over just the congregation, how do they get around the above scriptures mentioned? And i'm not too sure they individually believe he is reigning now. I made a comment to my mother (who is a strong JW) that Jesus was on the throne, and she looked at me really wierd, and said something like "yes, but Jehovah is ruling though".

46

What Excuses Did You Have For Missing Meetings?

by minimus in

jw
friends

sick, tired, hungry,......?

Sangdigger

When i was a kid, sickness always worked,

When i grew up, working late on purpose did the trick.

5

Kingdom Hall Songs

by sunshineToo in

since we are on that subject..... i've visited a church a few weeks ago, and i heard a song that had the exactly same melody as one of the kingdom melodies!!!!

i was always told that every song in the song book was composed by various jws.

has anyone noticed this???

Sangdigger

Something smells aweful funny. My wife just swore to me last Sunday the song we sang in church was the same melody as a JW song. But i cant remember wich one it was.

15

Mormon scandal brewing in Washington State

by Mulan in

jw
friends

my youngest son brought this article to my attention.

very, very interesting.

it was in the seattle pi, yesterday, december 2.. student risks ire of mormons.

Sangdigger

I studied with the mormans, and hung out with alot of thier missionaries for a while before i came to the knowledge of true saving grace in Christ. Me and the wife even attended a few of thier church meetings. Man, were we shocked!!! No crosses, no preachers,(they call them speakers), everyone in a suit and tie, definately alot of physical similarities, but once i studied their doctrine, i realized the major differences.

Thats true on the ex-communication stuff. They are allowed to speak to family members. But those who for example use tobbacco, or coffee, are not allowed to enter the temple to get baptized for their dead ancestors. Oh, and you have to be up to date on all your tithing, of course, like my pastors mother (who remains a morman) you can just put it on your credit card, that way you can make it in easy installments, and still go in the temple pronto. Afterall, you cant keep your ancestors waiting too long.

I also met alot of mormans who are practicing masons. Joseph Smith himself was a mason. The ironic thing, is when the mob in Missouri stormed the jail where he and his brother were being kept, it is recorded that ole Joe gave the masonic distress signal, but that didnt keep the mob, some of whom were also masons, from filling him full of lead.

Yizuman, you said "Both Rutherford and Russell were freemasons before they founded the WT society"

Does this mean that they ceased being masons after that? It doesnt look like Russell did, with the masonic symbol on his grave.

One afterthought, a missionary once told me that many of the handshakes and secret things they do in the temple originated with freemasonry.