Posts by scholar

24

Is it 607 or 586 ?

by happy man in

jw
friends

>i have seen comercial fore a bok from a swedish man who say jw are wrong on 607 issu, here on this site..

now i find this issu on the jw site thuchstone..

.

scholar

Ozziepost

Christian greetings to you and Mrs Ozzie from a fellow citizen residing in the best city of the planet, Sydney.

You are somewhat intriqued by my academic cre4dentials. So am I. Having spent my youth in various avenues of fulltime service, regular and special pioneer and missionary activity, I have been able to fulfill my dream of receiving two degrees, undergraduate and postgraduate in a field that I have always loved, biblical studies and theology.

You have claimed that Carl Jonsson' s work Gentile Times Reconsidered is a masterpiece. Although I respect his scholarship, his work is flawed by his treatment of the seventy years. Greg Staffpord in his Disssertaions has simply reviewed Carls interpretation of the seventy years and provides an alterrnative explanation for most of the key texts discussed in the Jonsson hypothrsis..

The subject of the seventy years is truly problematic. In fact, there is no universal consensus within current biblical scholarship that as to its theology and its chronology. Therefore. anything writtten om the subject must be considered simply as opinion until such time as a methodical study is produced.

To illustrate the difficulty in interpreting the seventy years, you may read the Excursus; Seventy Years in Jeremiah 26-52, Vol.27 in the Word Biblical Commentary, pp.73-75, 1995, Word Books, Dallas, Texas. You can purchase a copy at Koorong Books or read a copy at the Moore Theological College Library adjacent to Sydney Uni.. This short article simply several viewponts and contains a Bibliography which refers the reader to what has been published in the scholarly journals. Also, I believe you have a keem interest in Romans, you may consider purchasing Romans in the same commentary series and from the same bookseller.

Whilst researching this vexing topic, I suggest you refrain from the shiraz.

Regards

scholar BA MA studies in religion.r

,

24

Is it 607 or 586 ?

by happy man in

jw
friends

>i have seen comercial fore a bok from a swedish man who say jw are wrong on 607 issu, here on this site..

now i find this issu on the jw site thuchstone..

.

scholar

happy man

There is much controversy concerning the Fall of Jerusalem as to whether it is reckoned to be 586/587 or 607 BCE. There is evidence supporting both claims and it simply boils down to personal preference. The generally accepted dates of 586/587 is based upon a considerable amount of secular evidence but falls short in dealing with the problematic seventy years. The 607 date nicely accommodates a 70 years of desolation/servitude for Judah and is ell reconciled to the prophetic Gentile Times.

This subject has generated a considerable amont of comment in the form of interpretation and opinon but there has been insufficient attention paid to the matter of exegesis. This is especially so in the vexed subject of the seventy years. My personal preference is for the 607 date as it fulfills all the necessary requirements for chronology and prophecy.

scholar

BA MA Studies in Religion, University of Sydney, Australia

in

8

Looking for "Cautious As Serpents" ar...

by AlanF in

jw
friends

i'm looking for a recent article in either the watchtower or awake!

with a title or subject "cautious as serpents".

anybody know which issue it's in?.

scholar

Alan F

The article or subject that you are looking for is discussed in the Watchtower, 1996, July 15, p.22.

Hope this helps.

Regards

scholar BA MA (Studies in Religion)

10

A New Book

by scholar in

jw
friends

routledge books have released a new sociological study of the movement, namely 'jehovah's witnesses portrait of a contemporary religious movement' by andrew holden ph.d. publication date 10 jan 2002 and its isbn: 0415266106. .

scholar ba ma (studies in religion)

scholar

Routledge Books have released a new sociological study of the movement, namely 'Jehovah's Witnesses Portrait of a Contemporary Religious Movement' by Andrew Holden Ph.D. Publication date 10 Jan 2002 and its ISBN: 0415266106.

scholar BA MA (Studies in Religion)

40

When did Battle of Carchemish take place?

by badboy in

there's a very good question to stump a jw(hope i have spelled the place right?!).

it says in my niv study bible it toke place c.609 bc so therefore the fall of jerusalem toke place approxiametly(sic)20 years later according to the bible.. if you say carchemish toke place in 627,`can you provide evidence of this?

' might be a good question to a jw.

scholar

a Christian

The seventy years is a subject that scholars have a number of opinions as to its place in the history of Israel. The Jonsson hypothesis is simply one amongst many. This is well illustrated in the article I have asked you to read. It states: "None of the OT occurrences, however, designates the precise dates (ie. regnal years) for the beginning and ending of the seventy year span". - Excursus: Seventy Years in Jeremiah 26-52, WORD BIBLICAL COMMENTARY, Vol.27, Gerald L.Keown, Pamela J. Scalise, Thomas G. Smothers, 1995. Word Books: Dallas, Texas. The article discusses various opinions as to when this period applies. Therefore these scriptures that mention the seventy years must be interpreted in order for these texts to have any historical meaning.

Further, I refer you to an article 'JEREMIAH'S SEVENTY YEARS FOR BABYLON: A RE-ASSESSMENT PART 1: THE SCRIPTURAL DATA' The author Ross E. Winkle states: "The reason for a reappraisal of the four above -mentioned closely related texts relating to the Babylonian captivity is the continued variety of interpretations given them by scholars. These interpretations basically fall inot three categories: 1. the seventy years represent literal exact time; 2. the seventy years represent symbolic time; and 3. the seventy years, while neither exact nor symbolic, give an approximate chronological framework for historical events. Even within each of these categories, however there is a variety of opinions as to what constitutes the correct interpretation." Andrew University Seminary Studies, 1987,Vol.25, No.2, p.201.

Now you can appreciate why I have said that such a subject should be addressed at a post graduate level.

Enjoy

scholar BA MA Studies in Religion

40

When did Battle of Carchemish take place?

by badboy in

there's a very good question to stump a jw(hope i have spelled the place right?!).

it says in my niv study bible it toke place c.609 bc so therefore the fall of jerusalem toke place approxiametly(sic)20 years later according to the bible.. if you say carchemish toke place in 627,`can you provide evidence of this?

' might be a good question to a jw.

scholar

a Christian

You are incorrect in claiming that I have said thatthe Society's interpretation's of the 70 years accords with current scholarship. There is no consensus amonst scholars as to how this period should be understood. The Jonsson hypothesis which is your sole authority on the seventy years is one view amongst many. The society has given a greater prioity to the biblical account in preference to secular records and they are entitled to that view.

I thought you had an open mind but when I ask you to look at a reference work not published by the society and contains information on this subject, you refuse to consider it. Then you complain when I do not reply with an answer that suits you. A fair minded person would surely consider any information that touches on the subject. The article involved will not stumble you it is only two pages long and is not supportive of my view but illustrates the current state of scholarship on the subject. If you maintain this narrowminded attitude then I can only imagine that your contribution to matters of chronology will be diminished.

You claimed to have found the truth in the person of Jesus Christ then why do misrepresent what Ihave said previously? I have stated repestedly my position respecting the seventy years and did not promise to discuss this subject on this forum untill I have committed myself to post graduate research in the future. I have simply raised the subject of the Divided Monarchy in order to educate interested parties into the complexity of profane chronology and the simplicity of the society's biblical chronology. This assignment has not yet been accepted

scholar BA MA Studies in Religion

40

When did Battle of Carchemish take place?

by badboy in

there's a very good question to stump a jw(hope i have spelled the place right?!).

it says in my niv study bible it toke place c.609 bc so therefore the fall of jerusalem toke place approxiametly(sic)20 years later according to the bible.. if you say carchemish toke place in 627,`can you provide evidence of this?

' might be a good question to a jw.

scholar

a Christian

I am very well aware of The Absolute Dates that Thiele uses in his hypothesis as he discusses the subject under the heading Chapter Four - The Establisment of an Absolute Date in Hebrew Chronology. In this chapter he discusses many dates but does not offer a single Absolute Date. His discussion is complex in comparison with the Society's wisest choice of the fall of Babylon. The society;s chronology is simple, biblical and straightforward not as complex as you would have us believe.

Your simplistic understanding of the seventy years is at variance with current scholarship. In fact it is difficult to find any serious discussion of this subject in current works on chronology. Thiele along with others does not mention it at all
However, the subject is found in serious journals which I have copies at hand. I suggest that you consult the Excursus;Seventy Years ehich appears in the WBC Jeremiah 26-52, 1995. This article shows what current state of play in regard to this subject.

I have great respect for the secular ancient evidence for these periods and I went to some trouble with the financial assistance of the SDA College at Coooranbong to have translated from German into English, the original article for VAT 4956. So you are quite mistaken to think that I am not capable of thinking outside the square.

Despite my deep respect for the Jonsson hypothesis and my communications with him by phone and mail, I firmly believe that the Gentile Times doctrine is correct. The society has demonstrated a tradition of excellence in the field of biblical chronology both in the OT and the NT. Their exegesis of all texts pertaining to the seventy years of desolation for Judah is rock solid.

I have read on the subject of chronology since the early seventies and have read nothing that invalidates the society's interpretation in these matters. In fact the more one reads and pursues the controversies in chronology one marvels at the simplicity of our understanding. I have said repeatedly on this site that the society has already published the evidence for all of its claims. Such evidence may not satisfy some but it is ample for those who are sincere and searching for truth.

40

When did Battle of Carchemish take place?

by badboy in

there's a very good question to stump a jw(hope i have spelled the place right?!).

it says in my niv study bible it toke place c.609 bc so therefore the fall of jerusalem toke place approxiametly(sic)20 years later according to the bible.. if you say carchemish toke place in 627,`can you provide evidence of this?

' might be a good question to a jw.

scholar

a Christian

I look forward to your examining your book when it is published and it is most appropriate that a new look at Thiele's work is done. I agree with your criticisms of Thiele's use of the non and accession system and the calenders. I would add that his choice of Absolute Dates is all over the place and only adds to the complexity of his hypothesis.

I am somewhat saddened by your reaction to the presentation of the chart in the Aid book respecting the reigns of the kings. I would have thought that surely a reasonable person can see that the society has attempted to harmonize the data. I have not seen a better presentation in any work on chronology. If you cannot agree with it then that is fine but please be fair.

I have not responded to Alan's questions because I plan a holistic approach to the seventy years. It is pointless to discuss a single aspect unless the whole is completed otherwise it leads to a treadmill of questions and answers. I believe that such a study should be developed within an academic context, supervised and presented as a thesis/dissertation leading to an award. Also, I believe that Alan is not sincerely interested in such matters as he seems only to be critical of the witnesses.

You say that I should apologize to Alan and that Ishould make a defense of my faith. But the Bible also says not to converse with the fool or cast pearls before swine. You admit that Alan does not believe in the Bible as we do and yet are not the two of us professing a belief in the Lord? I truly wonder about where your loyalty lies?

scholar BA MA Studies in Religion

40

When did Battle of Carchemish take place?

by badboy in

there's a very good question to stump a jw(hope i have spelled the place right?!).

it says in my niv study bible it toke place c.609 bc so therefore the fall of jerusalem toke place approxiametly(sic)20 years later according to the bible.. if you say carchemish toke place in 627,`can you provide evidence of this?

' might be a good question to a jw.

scholar

a Christian

You claim to have no problem in understanding the problem of the Divided Monarchy. If this is the case then perhaps you could tabulate the reigns of the respective kings of Israel and Judah with a suggested chronology for the beginning and end of each reign. Such a tabulation can then be compared with other historians and chronologists who have published their presentations.

scholar BA MA

40

When did Battle of Carchemish take place?

by badboy in

there's a very good question to stump a jw(hope i have spelled the place right?!).

it says in my niv study bible it toke place c.609 bc so therefore the fall of jerusalem toke place approxiametly(sic)20 years later according to the bible.. if you say carchemish toke place in 627,`can you provide evidence of this?

' might be a good question to a jw.

scholar

a Christian

Sorry, I omitted to post this information which well illustrates the problem of understanding the chronology of the Divided Monarchy.

Hayes and Hooker 340 years
Thiele 345
Bright 335
Cogan and Tadmor 342
Society 393
Carl Jonsson Nil
Alan Fraud Nil

Regards
scholar