Posts by SEAKEN2001

25

Defeating The Watchtower - What Does This Mean?

by hillary_step in

jw
friends

i actually wrote this post in response to a poster recently dealing with the 'defeating' of the wts.. i have started a new topic with the post as i would like to hear opinions of what xjw's and others view as a 'defeated' watchtower.. "i am not quite sure what we all want from the wts.

what does a person mean by 'defeating' the watchtower?.

destroying it, selling its buildings, giving the cash back to the people who bought them?

SEAKEN2001

Hi HS,

I don't think of "defeating" anyone or any organization. I think of winning them over to a more balanced way of life. Extreme beliefs and actions can be dilaterious to ones health. Sometimes, extreme action is needed and a balanced person will know when that is and when that is not the appropriate action.

I think that many JW's just do not think for themselves and are counting of the organization to lead them to their salvation. So I agree with many of the comments here especially Sam's/Alan's about the the position of the the GB/Organization in the mind of the believer. I also agree with Lee and E-man and others about educating JW's about their own behavior. I believe that many who have realized that their own behavior was foolish and uncaring were moved to question the behavior of their beloved organization.

If there is a "defeat" it is being able to free the mind of the individual from the control of the cult. I personally don't think the cult itself will suffer any great defeat by any type of frontal assault tactics. But the cult will eventually suffer, at least to some degree, if many members learn to think for themselves and make their own choices in life. The cult itself may morph into something other than what it is now in order to survive. I hope that at least some people will be able to see the mental illness asscoiated with the cult and go to work healing the wounds, in themselves and others. I guess it's a grass-roots kind of thing rather than an outright war or frontal attack.

Sean

21

Should religious claims be tried in court?

by sleepy in

jw
friends

most people of the western world believe that the freedom to speak and express your opinion is a fundemental "right" of humans.. but how far can free speech go?.

what if i owned a cigarette firm, and i wanted to say on the packet, "somking is very benifical for you".

am i using my right to free speech, or am i misleading other people?.

SEAKEN2001

Hi Sleepy,

This is an extremely difficult question and one of the most important questions if we are to find our way through this period in our lives. I'm not sure there is a good answer but there is some good sentiment and possibly some good precedent for at least allowing the discussion of religion to take place in the courts.

I don't think the religious claims themselves can affectively be put on trial. How do you prove that God is not talking to someone? How do you prove that all the members of a religion believe the same thing and interpret the teachings of that religion in the same manner? However, it is significantly easier to prove that a particular teaching or belief has had a certain effect on an individual. For that reason I think it is fair, on a case by case basis, to examine the claims and teachings and make a determination as to the effect of those claims on the individual. Given enough similar cases there may be grounds for questioning the religions effects overall on it's membership and offering a general opinion that may serve as a warning to all onlookers.

Perhaps a trial by public opinion will be more affective than passing laws in an attempt to protect people from harm. In order to influence popular opinion about the claims of a religion a number of cases will need to become popular. That is a very difficult thing to accomplish on purpose. But there is the possibility that it will take place by accident. For instance, the attention now given to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church about celibacy and their overall policy on how to handle sex-abuse cases. There is not by necessity a direct connection between these two internal policies but the public opinion is strongly in that direction and the Catholics are now being forced to address these issues in the public arena. But I dare say there was a much better chance of that happening with the Catholic religion than it will ever be for the Jehovah's Witnesses religion. As much as we all want to deny it, the JW's just do not have a big pressence in the public eye. It will take considerably more legal attention and many more cases before the public even notices what is going on. Unless the leaders decide to take everyone on a field trip to South America and serve poisened punch there is not much chance of a fervor of public opinion against the claims of the WTS and how they affect it's membership.

So, should the claims be tried in court? Maybe not. But the results certainly can. If any attention to the religious claims can be given when trying a case in the courts with current law then perhaps there will eventually be enough reason for the legal system to take a closer look at the relgion's claims themselves. If we think there is a connection between the religious claims of the JW's and certain crimes we should work to prove the connection. But it will have to be on a case by case basis. Even with this attention the Catholics are getting most people are aware that these cases must be judged individually. But they are willing to at least consider that something the church is doing is a contributing factor. That will end up working in the favor of those who may otherwise have been swept under the rug and ignored as mere complainers and murmerers. Hopefully, the JW's will be held in similar light if the media and courts move to expose the cases of pedophila also plaguing the WTS. Only time will tell.

Sean

124

Booted! On the ship! Kicked off! Df'd!

by teejay in

jw
friends

over at kent's cozy discussion forum, at http://kent.steinhaug.com/forum/showthread.php3?s=576c225fa464b8a850eaf84a8f511cad&threadid=62, redhorsewoman started a thread wherein she wanted comments about an old highschool classmate (also a jw) that she recently met again.. responding to her post, i said.

too late for your situation, but i'd treat her as i've come to treat my jw family: leave religion, the truth, jehovah (and the rest of that jw baggage) out of all conversations... unless they bring it up.

and even then, don't expect much.

SEAKEN2001

Hey, Teejay.

If it matters, I really haven't formed an opinion of you based on what anyone has said on this and related topics. I saw where you were going with this thing and it seems that no harm was done. I see some of what you write as rediculous banter seemingly designed to amuse yourself. I see some of the other stuff as fairly balanced and objective and worth consideration. That makes you like everyone else. I think the same about Alan or Kent, or me. All of us do and say some pretty foolish stuff sometimes but in the end it's how we come through it that matters. Personally, I enjoy the "game" of trying to actually hear, consider, and appreciate the words of someone who tends to grate on my nerves, without ending up exhibiting childish behavior myself. This forum is a great place to play that game! [g]

Sean

18

Update on my parents

by Mulan in

jw
friends

princess and i have been posting (a couple weeks ago) about the ongoing 'soap opera' involving my mother, her fall, and where she will live.

three weeks ago, we put her in a group home.

she is nearly 90, and falls a lot, but has an extremely sharp mind, and is a real "going concern".

SEAKEN2001

Ha! Laughing!

Mulan, this is incredible. I never would have considered this could happen with your mom. Sometimes life is stranger than fiction.

Good luck and have fun with it.

Luv ya,
Sean

6

I've got my ducks in a row....

by Princess in

jw
friends

well, sort of.

every march since we moved in to this house, we have had a mallard couple fly to our yard daily.

i totally forget about them until i look outside and there they are, waiting for bread.

SEAKEN2001

Hey guys, we got two inches of snow last night! All is white.

Cute ducks Princess.

How was your St Pats day?

Sean

124

Booted! On the ship! Kicked off! Df'd!

by teejay in

jw
friends

over at kent's cozy discussion forum, at http://kent.steinhaug.com/forum/showthread.php3?s=576c225fa464b8a850eaf84a8f511cad&threadid=62, redhorsewoman started a thread wherein she wanted comments about an old highschool classmate (also a jw) that she recently met again.. responding to her post, i said.

too late for your situation, but i'd treat her as i've come to treat my jw family: leave religion, the truth, jehovah (and the rest of that jw baggage) out of all conversations... unless they bring it up.

and even then, don't expect much.

SEAKEN2001

See? This is good, right? Who would want to "ignore" all this? Teejay is making his thread quotes and having fun and Alan is getting a chance to wield his sharp tongue. Skip the ignore function Simon. Not needed!

[Smile]

Sean

46

Let's See Your Town:

by Englishman in

jw
friends

heres mine: http://www.scotphoto.com/englishphoto/categories/towns/westonsupermare.html.

englishman.

SEAKEN2001

Hey, Happy St. Patty Day to you all. Princess, tell Dad to have a pint on me. Cheers!

Sean

124

Booted! On the ship! Kicked off! Df'd!

by teejay in

jw
friends

over at kent's cozy discussion forum, at http://kent.steinhaug.com/forum/showthread.php3?s=576c225fa464b8a850eaf84a8f511cad&threadid=62, redhorsewoman started a thread wherein she wanted comments about an old highschool classmate (also a jw) that she recently met again.. responding to her post, i said.

too late for your situation, but i'd treat her as i've come to treat my jw family: leave religion, the truth, jehovah (and the rest of that jw baggage) out of all conversations... unless they bring it up.

and even then, don't expect much.

SEAKEN2001

About the "ignore" feature:

many boards have had that feature and many people are happy to use it. I'll admit that it is tempting to ignore someone you don't like. It is also easier. You don't have to deal with your own emotions and perhaps end up losing your control and say something that you regret. But I have never yet used it. I chose not to indescriminately ignore any username until I have first heard what they have to say. Sure, it takes time to read and filter out the crap. But you really get a better result in your own mind when you can honestly say you evaluated all sides of the issue, even those you personaly find distasteful or completely stupid. Occasionaly I am surprised to read something from someone who until that time has only spouted off with infantile and stupid comments. I have even seen some board members grow up and start making sense. I would have missed that evolution in their life had I chose to just ignore them.

I do sort out what I choose to read though. Sometimes I see where a thread is going and decide to pass. Sometimes just the subject line combined with the username is enough to pass it by. All this is a kind of on-the-fly filter and is done in real time as I go. So far I haven't needed the help of software to make my judgements of what to read and what to skip. But if you want to put that in the software, Simon, I think that will be fine. I like software that has lots of options whether I use them or not. Go for it.

Someone said something about it taking too much time, or something like that, oh, here it is, from gravedancer,

"I like discussion forums where they save me time, effort and annoyance."

My thought when I read that, gravedancer, was that anything worth doing takes time, effort and annoyance. I can't think of any conclusions I have made about my life as a JW, and my curent life as an ex-JW, that havn't come through a lot of time, effort and annoyance. Just today I was feeling annoyed at what I was reading from you on a similar thread. Yet, having stuck it out I am now willing to give what you said a little more thought. It took time, effort and annoyance on my part to get to this point. But now, just maybe, I'll get more out of what you say. Maybe not. But the point is that if I had you and/or teejay on ignore neither one of you would ever get a chance in my book. It's up to you but I suggest that you try harder to put up with who you think as idiots and listen to what is said, rather than getting discouraged by someones tone. I made the same suggestion to someone else in this thread once and I think it stands as good advice for everyone. But, I won't be too hurt if you just ignore me and think me a big wind bag who thinks he has all the answers to online conflict. This approach works for me and I realize that not everyone thinks it is the best approach. At any rate, so far in my short life of 38, I have decided that there is no easy time-saving and annoyance-free way to learn anything.

Sean

124

Booted! On the ship! Kicked off! Df'd!

by teejay in

jw
friends

over at kent's cozy discussion forum, at http://kent.steinhaug.com/forum/showthread.php3?s=576c225fa464b8a850eaf84a8f511cad&threadid=62, redhorsewoman started a thread wherein she wanted comments about an old highschool classmate (also a jw) that she recently met again.. responding to her post, i said.

too late for your situation, but i'd treat her as i've come to treat my jw family: leave religion, the truth, jehovah (and the rest of that jw baggage) out of all conversations... unless they bring it up.

and even then, don't expect much.

SEAKEN2001

Yeah, Teejay, I figured that was where you were going with this. I don't know your motives but I fail to see how this little test has helped anyone.

This is the way it looks from my seat:

You and Kent (and Norm and Alan, anyone else? oh yeah, gravedancer) don't get along and Kent has decided he doesn't want to even be around you. So he left the place where you are and started his own board where he obviously does not want you participating. I think you knew that at the outset as you have already implied. So what's the big deal? Kent probably should have just sent you an e-mail and told you to stay away from his board and that if you showed up he would boot you as an exception to his rules. But, for whatever reason he decided to just do his thing. When you came in, he said get out. End of story.

I really don't know you and you may be a nice guy. Alan obviously has the idea that you're just up to some games. I read some of your stuff and I can't say either way. You don't seem too different from any of the rest here who like to have the last say. But it does look like in this case you are just stirring up trouble. And this is no defense of Kent, who has shown his own colors as far as his personality goes. But, hey, I tolerate you both and won't be putting you on my ignore list. But if you are out just to stir up trouble I think it will catch up to you. After all, if your approach keeps sending people off to start their own discussion boards Simon will have to resort to more advertising to meet his budget! [g]

Take this as constructive criticism, or anyway you like. You decide how you will proceed from here. One thing I can say for Kent is that he's made his decision and has moved on. I see no need for you to keep dogging him about it. FWIW,

Sean

46

Let's See Your Town:

by Englishman in

jw
friends

heres mine: http://www.scotphoto.com/englishphoto/categories/towns/westonsupermare.html.

englishman.

SEAKEN2001

Princess, you're making me homesick! I loved that view everyday. I would drive over the hill just to take a look. Also spent a lot of time over on the hill near Alderwood to get a nice view of the Cascades. Sigh.

Here's the closet town to me, about 10 miles away from me.
http://www.hvnet.com/panoramas/woodstock1_hvn.htm

Here's the site for the greater Hudson Valley which my part of the Catskills borders.
http://www.hvnet.com/panoramas/map.htm

This is the only view I could find where you can see the Catskills. This view is from the other side of the Hudson River.
http://www.hvnet.com/panoramas/poetswalkpark.htm

I live off the map to the left (west). I have a nice view of the mountains out my front window but I don't have a Jpeg handy.

Sean