Posts by NeverKnew

30

Could this be accurate?

by NeverKnew in

jw
friends

is the information on this webpage* regarding the socioeconomic conditions of jws a fair connection to the all too familiar wts quote of 1969?

does the report's statistics appear to be plausible given your personal observations?

*even though many others have copied and pasted the article (including the individual who created the page hyperlinked above), i'm apprehensive about doing so for copyright reasons.

The webpage statements in my OP sickened me the most for it appears to reflect the result of the thoughts promoted in the late 60's. I was most wondering if your personal observations supported the data's conclusions.

The elements I found most distressing in the article (http://users.adam.com.au/bstett/JwSocioeconomic86.htm) were the following:

Of the thirty sects ranked, Jehovah's Witnesses have the least number of college graduates, only 4.7%. Only 2.8% of the Jehovah's Witnesses in the sampling were students, indicating the continuation of a lower college graduation rate. One sect had a college graduation rate near 50%.
67.6% of all White Jehovah's Witnesses were high school graduates with a 4.4% college graduation rate. 82.6% of the Black Jehovah's Witnesses were high school graduates with a 7.6% college graduation rate.
The mean annual household income ranking of Jehovah's Witnesses averaged $20,900 with only 5 denominations ranking lower.
Jehovah's Witnesses ranked sixth from the bottom in home ownership.
"The overall aggregate ranking on socioeconomic status ranked Jehovah's Witnesses on the bottom of the 30 largest sects."
Jehovah's Witnesses were ranked next to the last in full time employment at 44.1%,

The JWs I've met are such sweethearts. Knowing all of this makes it hard to look at them with anything but pity.

30

Could this be accurate?

by NeverKnew in

jw
friends

is the information on this webpage* regarding the socioeconomic conditions of jws a fair connection to the all too familiar wts quote of 1969?

does the report's statistics appear to be plausible given your personal observations?

*even though many others have copied and pasted the article (including the individual who created the page hyperlinked above), i'm apprehensive about doing so for copyright reasons.

NeverKnew

Is the information on this webpage* regarding the socioeconomic conditions of JWs a fair connection to the all too familiar WTS quote of 1969? Does the report's statistics appear to be plausible given your personal observations? *Even though many others have copied and pasted the article (including the individual who created the page hyperlinked above), I'm apprehensive about doing so for copyright reasons.

"If you are a young person, you also need to face the fact that you will never grow old in this present system of things. Why not? Because all of the evidence in fulfillment of Bible prophecy indicates that this corrupt system is due to end in a few years... Therefore, as a young person,you will never fulfill any career that this system offers. If you are in high school and thinking about a college education, it means at least four, perhaps even six or eight more years to graduate into a specialized career. But where will this system of things be by that time? It will be well on the way toward its finish, if not actually gone." Awake! May 22, 1969 Page 15

35

Do you blame Jehovah, Yahweh, God, Jesus, etc. for the corruption of the borg?

by Fading Begins in

jw
friends

do you hold god accountable for the corruption of the borg?

i've noticed there seems to be a bitterness, by some, that includes "god" in the equation, when discussing the borg and their policies, the governing body, elders actions, etc.

do the borg's transgressions originate with god, or does he feel the same disgust as we do?

NeverKnew

Should Jehovah be blamed for the corruptions of the Borg?

Doesn't this statement suggest there being a time the Borg held honest truths? How much have you read about Russell's other companies?

Please realize this man lived in an era when prominent families were amassing vast fortunes. Andrew Carnegie (steel), Henry Clay Frick (steel), the Mellon family - heck, Rockefeller was just northwest of here in Ohio. I used to give him the benefit of the doubt, but after I read more about him, I no longer believe his intentions were so sincere.

83

The perplexing conundrum 607 b.c.e condensed down to ONE SIMPLE FACT

by Brother of the Hawk in

i was encouraged to post this thought, so here it is.. i recently finished reading "the gentile times reconsidered" by bro.

carl olof jonsson, ( third edition).

phew!!

NeverKnew

Huh? Tell your Dad I absolutely LOVED his post and tell him someone has already USED it... Guess what! It worked! LOL Brow was furrowed - brain was processing. *grin* Thank GOODNESS I can see this site on my phone...

I'm learning something about presenting things to the JWs I'm in contact with. I ask questions, create theories and then ask THEM to research. To refute claims of this nature, they HAVE to come out of jw.org and that CD of wisdumb. ANY statement that can be refuted by the WTS's claims seem to be moot. This? This is PERFECT.

As far as the challenges go, let your Dad know that this is the BEST place to fine tune his argument! Tell him to KEEP GOING!!!!

83

The perplexing conundrum 607 b.c.e condensed down to ONE SIMPLE FACT

by Brother of the Hawk in

i was encouraged to post this thought, so here it is.. i recently finished reading "the gentile times reconsidered" by bro.

carl olof jonsson, ( third edition).

phew!!

NeverKnew

All I know is, I found my new faith on the history channel over the weekend. Sir Isaac Newton (who we all know was WAY more brilliant than Charles Taze Russell and... whats-his-other-face before Russell)... predicted it will all end in 2060 using Daniel's prophetical statements. I couldn't stay awake to see if 607 BC could be jerry-rigged to make Newton's date work.

Maybe the GB can leverage 2060 AD for their next prophecy of Armageddon.

28

Friends are studying with the JW's

by LouBelle in

i was studying spanish a little while ago - had to stop because of finances but became friends with the spanish teacher and we keep in touch, see each other now and again.

i just got a message from him:.

"hola louise, i would like to talk to you about 2 things, about the jws, as we are following this fatih, we find it interesting, we haven't been baptised yet, i want to make sure before making a mistake and the other thing that allan and i wold like to talk about is starting your own business.....".

NeverKnew

I agree with Steve on the information overload. Put very succinctly, one once told me, "You can't give someone a drink of water with a firehose." I've been "witnessing" to a born-in for a year and a half. It's REALLY HARD.

But, to answer your question and to validate a few responses above, the points that have had the most impact thus far include:

Candace Conti & pedophiles (I was able to show him one on Megan's list that went to his KH)
OH! The MISQUOTES! That's been a big one because I think it has shaken his trust in the information he's being provided. You MAY be able to say that you started researching some of the quoted sources and that you were shocked and saddened by what you found from a source that you trusted so dearly.
On 1914? I'd stay away from that one. If they're new, they may have been told that they can't and won't understand the deeper content until they understand other points. A woman I was speaking to said that the topic of 1914 was on page 215 of the WDTBRT book and that it took some people years of study to get to that level. I'm learning that the born-ins I've spoken to don't really understand the construct so they're definitely not going to be able to refute the challenge, or understand it for that matter.
The inability to access older publications bothers him as well. He's asking himself why people outside of the organization are able to access information about his organization that HE can't access.

If I think of more, I'll let you know.

18

One baptism...

by NeverKnew in

i just realized, i have to explain the joke so you guys will get it.

in some churches, communion is open to anyone who has been baptised regardless of denomination or church affiliation at baptism.

so, even though one may be confirmed or baptised at one church, it can be acceptable to go to another church and receive communion.

NeverKnew

Steve, your comparison is actually a perfect parallel! I absolutely LOVE it and will use it.

Imagine you and your wife/partner/significant other (ie beliefs) being invited and encouraged to come to an event. You attend but throughout the event, you have a nagging feeling that others in the group aren't respecting your union but you're not quite sure if what's being said should be considered an insult. "Surely they're not saying... or are they?" Afterwards you run into the person who invited you and they say, "WASN'T THAT BEAUTIFUL????"

Sadly, but purely out of an ignorance of everyone else's frame of reference (which the WT requires), the poor adherents believe they're inviting us to a beautiful ceremony but are just being set up to look ridiculous in our eyes. It's just not right.

Both of you... stop talking/bragging about warm weather. That's not right either. It's cold here. *giggling*

8

Quantifying the 1914 mantra - is this possible?

by NeverKnew in

for those who do not believe 1914 is a big deal and it's not necessary to understand it, think again.

once (and if) my friend acknowledges that 1914 just simply isn't true, i want to make it clear that this would mean that every single time a statement was made with respect to 1914 it was a lie and according to your wt cd, there were at least (x) times this date was cited.

i want to ask how many awake magazines may have been distributed in the number of years that it held that 1914 statement.... cause everytime an awake magazine with the 1914 statement was distributed by the adherents, they promoted and distributed a lie.

NeverKnew

6329 occurrances of 1914? Let's say half of these are with respect to the lie... That's three thousand times they exponentially distributed the lie.

Wow, more to chew on! I have to take all of this and digest it so I can regurgitate it clearly.

I will have questions.

39

Gregorian Calendar

by NeverKnew in

i'm suffering from a vicious cycle.

put the research down - declare i'm not doing it anymore because it sickens me, ponder, make another aha connection, get sickened by it, put the research down, declare i'm not doing it anymore because it sickens me.. ponder.

i'm glad it's not just me.. i think my jw friend has been embarrassed one time too many with wt historical facts and so now he has asked me to help him understand my concerns and present him with some research that validates it.

NeverKnew

OMG! Information overload and lots to chew on! The more information, the better since I don't know which of these paths he's going to follow. I'm going to look at each one and absorb as much as my little brain can handle.

If this prophecy is so critical to Bible understanding, why is it that no other writer quotes, alludes to, or references it? Why did Jesus Christ never talk about it in connection with his kingdom and his return?

Quendi - I absolutely LOVE your question and it will get incorporated at the appropriate time.

Can anyone answer Sully's question? I can't believe I hadn't thought of that! Originally, Russell/Rutherford declared 606 BC as the Destruction of the Temple which made the math easy (-606+2520=1914). Did either ever say where this "accurate" information came from?

18

One baptism...

by NeverKnew in

i just realized, i have to explain the joke so you guys will get it.

in some churches, communion is open to anyone who has been baptised regardless of denomination or church affiliation at baptism.

so, even though one may be confirmed or baptised at one church, it can be acceptable to go to another church and receive communion.

NeverKnew

It wasn't Retro's post. It was mine, Neverknew's and I'm glad you two worked things out. I'm sorry that my presentation wasn't clear to you but my intentions are sincere. To say my goal was to be disrespectful at a service was way off. My presence here and questions should say more than that.

Steve, my heart goes out to those having a tough time making non-jw friends once away from the organization. If I can help one person avoid an unintended communication challenge with a worldly, my words and time were worth it. As Retro and I are getting insight into the thinking of a JW, I would hope that reading our posts can provide insight towards the thinking (flawed or not) of non-jws.

I do want to address another point in your post, but before I do that I'm curious... Before this post, was there anyone reading this who did not know that some churches acknowledged one baptism regardless of denominational affiliation and that in many circumstances it was acceptable to receive communion in a church of another faith?