I asked the question on another thread "is it true that Jews sometimes call YHVH the firstborn of creation ?" I asked this because it has bearing on a discussion with JW's that I had about Jesus . I had pointed out that the Bible says that NOTHING was made that was not made by Him so Jesus could not be made or created . One witness pointed out that in the same passage Jesus is called the Firstborn of all creation , so she says if He was born then there was a time when He did not exist (standard JW answer I suppose ) I looked into this and found out that "firstborn " has lots of meaning from the OT such as the one chosen to inherit , not just the first one out of a mothers womb . In the course of this study I came across two references by commentators that Jews also use the titlle firstborn of creation for YHVH. NOw that puts an interesting light on the fact of Jesus being given that title (or so I think , in my humble opinion ) Can anyone , Band On The Run , maybe with your Jewish friends shed any light on this subject ? pretty please .
Posts by jhine
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150YHWH v YHVH - yes, V not W
by *lost* ingod's real name and identity yhvh.
yhwh - fraudulent identity.. .
can we all sue wt for evidenced fraud and deliberate deception ??
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136
After the cult how many reject faith in anything?
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jhine
first , thank you Lost , unstopableravens the church that I attend at the moment is C of E , but if I moved I would have no problem going to Baptist , Methodist etc anywhere where God is worshipped in the name of Christ . Cofty and return of the parakeeet ( some brilliant names on here , I would love to know the stories behind some of them ) first perhaps I should appologise for making a somewhat sweepng generalisation , though I did not actually say all atheists , just meant a lot of people that I know who get wound up with anger and bitterness , hold grudges , perhaps miss out on getting the enrichment that some people could bring into their lives because they judge that person by clothes or something trivial . If that is not you then sorry for any offence caused .
I noticed that someone has quoted figures for so called "religious wars " well my point was and still is that the people responsible for those wars in the name of religion are not truly following whatever religion that the proffess to follow , they are following their own selfish and sinful desires . NO major religion actually advocates killing in its name ,and these people will have to answer for their actions . Usually wars are fought over land or power or plain hatred and glossed over by the excuse of religion.
Just because someone calls themselves Christian it does not mean that they are , as someone wise once said you can sit in a garage for a week it would not make you a car .
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136
After the cult how many reject faith in anything?
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jhine
religion does NOT cause wars . These people who claim to be Muslims are not following Islam , Catholics and Protestants in N Ireland who bombed and kneecapped each other are not Christians . Any major religion teaches peace . Jesus says love your enemy , do good to those who hate you . The world would actually be a better place if people REALLY followed their declared faiths . All religions teach that you should care about your fellow man , take care of the poor , etc . The problem is not when someone actually lives a life of true faith , it is people who act out their own predjudices , greed and sinful attitudes and try to justify themselves by acting in the "name " of religion .
Also being a Christian does not mean making great sacrifices , I really enjoy my life , I make choices about my behaviour , to love the unloveable , to forgive wrongs ( both actual and perceived !) , but you know what , it actually enhances my life and gives a freedom to me that my atheist friends don't have . I concentrate on the important things and don't waste energy holding grudges or anger , I don't strive for things that won't make me any happier if I get them .
TRUE religion enhances the individual and society . Obviously I believe Christian teaching ( not going to go into appologetics here ) , but I will defend my Muslim , Buddist , Sikh , etc brothers and sisters against this lie that is repeatd that religion causes all the wrongs in the world , no, human nature does that , religion should temper human nature and give a code of ethics to live by that negates the worst in us all .
.what about all the good that has been achieved by religious people outing on their convictions , the abolition of slavery was largely due to true Christians . In England much social reform was bought about by people of faith , children no longer get sent up chimneys ! This is religion in action and that is what true religion looks like .
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Jehovah's Witnesses (Watchtower Trained) Vs Christians From 36A.D. to 300 A.D.
by ÁrbolesdeArabia inhow do jws compare to the ancient churches of the first few centuries?
almost every jw claim's "organized preaching" is the mark of true christians, this is not backed by the bible.
how are jws like the first century through fourth century christians?.
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jhine
I cannot find the watchtower July 15 2013 online . I have found a study watchtower dated mid April 2013 but that does not seem to be the same one that is being discussed , I am officially confused. com . Help !!
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firstborn son
by jhine inin a recent discussion with my jw friends we looked at col 1 and the subject of the supremecy of christ .
i naturally pointed out that it states that without jesus nothing was made so jesus can't have been made .
i pointed out where the org wrongly inserts the word other to change the meaning completely , which at first they refused to see as having bearing on the meaning but after i had said nothing was made without him a few times they fell back onto the fact that jesus is called the firstborn of creation and stated quite forcefully that if someone is born then there was a time when they did not exist .
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jhine
IN a recent discussion with my JW friends we looked at Col 1 and the subject of the supremecy of Christ . I naturally pointed out that it states that without Jesus nothing was made so Jesus can't have been made . I pointed out where the Org wrongly inserts the word other to change the meaning completely , which at first they refused to see as having bearing on the meaning but after I had said NOTHING was made without Him a few times they fell back onto the fact that Jesus is called the firstborn of creation and stated quite forcefully that if someone is born then there was a time when they did not exist .
Now I know that this is not what is meant so looked at a few commentaries which talk about the status of the firstborn in the OT and how sometimes the person out of the womb first is rejected in favour of another son who is then called "firstborn " Links were made to Adam who was in sense disinherited and the fact that Christ is called the second Adam (you can see where that is going )
What I want to ask though is does anyone know if the Jews ever refer to YHWH as the firstborn of creation ?. Two commentaries made reference to this but I have been unable to confirm this by Googling any of the possible words that I could try . If this is true then it puts an interesting spin on the Col passage
Any thoughts or comments will be very welcome
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229
How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies.
by mP intheres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.
im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?
then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.
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jhine
what I don't understand is why you keep coming onto this site . MY husband is an atheist who says that Christians are idiots or hypocrites ( I come under the well meaning idiot class , as I'm sure your wondering , but he loves me anyway ) . NOw he does not want to believe and has no interest in talking about religion at all , so he would not dream of wasting his time on a site like this . Most of the people on this site are ex JW's or people like me who know JW's and are interested in engaging with them . This leaves me wondering why as an atheist who clearly does not want to believe , who has never been a JW or does not to want to share with JW's what your fascination about Christians is . What do you get out of asking questions only to be rude about the answers , the only thing that I am left with is that you have some personal reason for coming after Christians .
How far off the mark am I ?
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229
How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies.
by mP intheres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.
im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?
then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.
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jhine
"Lying out of their ass " , point proved
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229
How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies.
by mP intheres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.
im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?
then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.
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jhine
mp. forget it , I do not know what your problem is but I hope that one day you will sort it out . YOu really do not want answers you just want to trash other people and you have your mind firmly set .
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229
How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies.
by mP intheres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.
im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?
then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.
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jhine
mp.
lets look at your statement that God is only interested in the Jews , In Isaiah 2 :2-4 Isaiah talks about the relationship between the Jews and the nations and the Lord and the nations . In Isaiah 42:6 the Lord says that He will make the Jews a light for the Gentiles , and in Isaiah 49 :6 God talks about "I will also make you a light for the Gentiles , that you may bring my salvation the to the ends of the earth "
The Jews were always meant to introduce the rest of mankind to YHWH and make all people HIs people . Any foreigner who wished could be circumcised and worship the Lord and so come under His protection . YHWH never said that only people born as Jews could come to HIm . The plan was that the Jews would tell all nations about HIm .
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229
How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies.
by mP intheres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.
im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?
then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.
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jhine
mp , look a few posts up you say quite clearly " when he sponsors genocide " that is where I got it from . In the parable of the wedding feast real names and places are not used because as it is refering to thousands and thousands of non Jews (who are the first invited guests) then it would quite clearly take lots of books to mention everybody by name .
YOu are not stupid , do you question why Aesop didn't name the hare and the tortoise and does that make the truths in the story any less true because we don't know that they were called Jeremy and Brian ?
You understand perfectly the concept of parables as relating to a general idea ., so why ask such nonsensical questions ? If I could give you a list of names of wedding guests would you then believe the parable ?