Posts by jhine

39

MOSES AND THE COPPER SERPENT......mysterious!

by Terry in

jw
friends

isn't it odd; even mysterious that christians think jesus could be represented by a serpent?

numbers 21:8 and the lord said unto moses, make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

21:9 and moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

jhine

Band on The Run , thank you for a reasoned and polite reply . I do still think however that the issue is not so clear cut .

Doesn't the Bible say that God's redemption was supposed to be for the whole world , but because the Jews were rebellious and stubborn they were not drawing people to God as they should ? I know that this is a simplistic way of putting it but I hope that you understand my meaning . If this is the case and God always meant for the whole world to come to aknowledgment of Him , then it logically follows that Paul and others would preach to Gentiles and Pagans . God wants everyone to be saved .

What prophecy would you like to see fulfilled ?

you mention wars , again I will say that religion does not cause war , human nature does , anyone actually following any main religion , including Christianity knows that no religion actually advocates killing . You know that Jesus said do good to them that hate you and treat your fellow man as you would want to be treated . Whatever you believe doctrinally about Jesus No true follower would go to war in His name , as a means of converting someone .

All of the Disciples were willing to die or face imprisonment , flogging etc rather than stop preaching the message of Jesus which included His divinity , they must have been pretty sure of what they were saying .

I know that Muslims are willing to die for their faith , suicide bombers etc , but they are suffering for someone elses lie , the promise of virgins etc . The disciples were willing to die for what they said they knew first hand . That surely carries some weight .

10

is it considered a df offence if you actually agree to your child having bloodj

by brainmelt in

jhine

I recently watched a hospital drama that was set in the 60's . The story was about a child of JW parents who needed a transfusion and the parents not giving premission . The docs then got a court order etc . In a n empassioned speech the "JW" father said that because the authorities had forced the new born baby to have a transfusion the child would be an outcast from his religion and not be able to live on paradise earth . The obvious implication being that the child would be punished because of the actions of the adults around it .

Now , of course this was a fictional incident but from what I do know the Watchtower teachings do seem to have been well researched . So my question is did the Watchtower ever put onto parents the emotional blackmail that if they made the decision for a baby to have a transfusion , that baby , even though the desicion was not it's own would be DF'd ?

39

MOSES AND THE COPPER SERPENT......mysterious!

by Terry in

jw
friends

isn't it odd; even mysterious that christians think jesus could be represented by a serpent?

numbers 21:8 and the lord said unto moses, make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

21:9 and moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

jhine

Band on the Run , you say that Jesus never identified Himself with the Logos , well is it not a plausilble explanation, as explained above ,that that is what He is doing by saying " Just as Moses etc " . It makes more sense that He is thinking about that explanation of the incident by the Rabbis in the Targum and that His Jewish listeners would understand the reference than that He is identifying Himself with the snake .

You say that John wrote much later, so what are you implying , that John has put his own spin on the events ? Isn't it just possible , and I am only asking if it is possible that John did understand that reference and posslbly others and realised what Jesus was saying . We should remember that the Jews not only had Torah and the Prophets as we do now but a rich history of Rabbinical interpretation and commentary , which is only available to us when we make the effort to find it .

I know that Jews understand so much more from the OT than we do , they see it as multilayered , the literal reading of a passage being only the top layer .

I have just broken off from typing to look for more information about this , I know that I have it somewhere . Howeverwhile failing to find it , for the moment , I did come across some wriring by a Dr Arnold Fruchtenbaum (no me neither ) who is the Founder/ Director of Ariel Ministries , who appear to be part of the Association of Messianic Congregations . No I do not know much about this group apart from the fact that they are Jews who have come to believe that Jesus is Messiah .

He concludes his piece entitled Jewishness and the Trinity by saying

"If the concept of the Tri-Unity of God is not Jewish according to modern Rabbis , then neither are the Hebrew sriptures . Jewish Cristians cannot be accused of having slipped into paganism when they hold to the fact Jesus is the divine Son of God .He is the same one of whom Moses wrote when the Lord said

" Behold , I send an Angel before you to keep you in the way and to bring you into the place which I have prepared . Beware of HIm and obey His voic ; do not provoke Him , for He will not pardon your transgressions ; for my name is Him . But if you indeed obey His voice and do all that I speak , then I will be an enemy to your enemies and an adversary to your adversaries for My Angel will go before you and bring you into the Amorites and the Hittites and the Perizzites and the Canaanites and the Hivites and the Jebusites ; and I will cut them off " (Exodus 23: 20-23 Now I know that verse isn't popular and I am not going to go into discussion about what "cut them off "meant and I know that one quote from one Messianic Jewish source is not enough to make anyone change their mind

I do feel that it shows that the issue is complicated Some Jews , at least ,feel that the Hebrew scriptures do support the NT claims about Jesus . We are told that on the road to Emmaus that Jesus explained the OT in relation to Himself to some disciple s Maybe , just Maybe that was at least partly where the NT teaching came from .

I know that this is not going to convince anyone who does not want to believe , and that is up to the individual , I just want to show that the issue is maybe not cut and dried either way .

39

MOSES AND THE COPPER SERPENT......mysterious!

by Terry in

jw
friends

isn't it odd; even mysterious that christians think jesus could be represented by a serpent?

numbers 21:8 and the lord said unto moses, make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

21:9 and moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.

jhine

I have only just come across this thread and as a Christian it did intrigue me , I had not thought about this in the way you put it Terry . I do read the Bible not just books about it , but sometimes it does help to get background information . So I did a bit of digging and found out that in the Targum it is written

" so that the look was not to the brazen serpent , but to God in heaven ; yea to the word of God , His essential Logos "

Remember this was written by a Rabbi ,not aChristian as an explanation of the incident in the desert .

Jonathan ben Uzziel puts it this way

" and Moses made a serpent of brass and put it upon a high place , and it was when a serpent had bitten any man , and he looked to the serpent of brass and direced his heart to the name of the word of the Lord he lived "

So Jesus was identifying Himself with the Logos of God , or the Word of God , which Jews would have understood . Jews saw the Logos as emanating from God , so this was essentialy another time that Jesus was claiming oneness with the Father .

Trinity might not be called such in the NT but again by finding understanding of the OT and it's interpretation into the New we see another major hint as to Jesus divinity .

Thank you Terry for prodding me into researching this .

122

Suspicious

by Suspicious in

i guess i'm new here.

born in and an ms. things just hasn't been making sense the more i think about it.

i'm starting to get suspicious.

jhine

suspicious , welcome , it is great that you are questioning . I have never been a JW and I'm not sure about labelling myself a born again Christian , this has a "flavour " attatched to it that makes some people buck against it . No offence Cofty , now that you are no longer one you possibly understand what I mean .

I am a member of the Church of England (Anglican ) We tend to not be too strict about anything , following your own path with the Lord under the guidence of the Holy Spirit pretty much sums us up ! so very different to what you are used to .

I visit this sight because I know some Witnesses and enjoy debating with them , yes they know that I do not believe the WT teaching and am constantly telling them that the GB are lets say , less than honest sometimes , but they realise that I do have Bible knowledge and to my shame find it refreshing to have someone from another belief system who does regularly read the Bible and can talk to them on a level playing field .

Many on this sight are now atheist and it does seem to be the case that when people find out the truth about the Watchtower it destroys their faith altogether .

I am not saying that you should follow any path other than your own , but just joining in with those who say find out all that you can , if possible laying aside the preconcieved ideas that have been planted in your thinking by the org. It must be hard to realise that something that you have held dear for so long is maybe not what you thought , perhaps like finding out that your partner has been unfaithful . However that does not mean that all people are incapable of fidelity , its a matter of finding the right one .

God bless you in your search for truth

15

my evangelical christian co-worker is extremely "racist" towards Hispanics

by booker-t in

jw
friends

i am getting so tired of my co-worker who is a "evangelical christian" constantly making racist slurs towards hispanic people.

i just don't get it and it is making me very uncomfortable because i wonder what he says about "black" people behind my back.

everyday he makes comments such as "mexicans" are dumb and stupid, "mexicans all can't speak good english", "mexicans have 50 million babies" and "mexicans are all on welfare".

jhine

lost , ta very much , I just get fed up hearing the old chestnut about religion being the cause of all things bad .

Two political ideologies , communism and facism were responsilble for more deaths in the 20th century than any other cause . You don't hear people calling for an end to politics .

15

my evangelical christian co-worker is extremely "racist" towards Hispanics

by booker-t in

jw
friends

i am getting so tired of my co-worker who is a "evangelical christian" constantly making racist slurs towards hispanic people.

i just don't get it and it is making me very uncomfortable because i wonder what he says about "black" people behind my back.

everyday he makes comments such as "mexicans" are dumb and stupid, "mexicans all can't speak good english", "mexicans have 50 million babies" and "mexicans are all on welfare".

jhine

Just because you sit in a garage for a week it will not make you a car ! Just because someone says that they are Christian does not make them so . Any major religion teaches tolerance for and love toward your fellow man . Anyone not displaying these qualities is not following their proffesed religion . This is the same argument (false ) as the one that says religion causes war . NO it does not . Human nature causes all the worlds ills .

I have said it before and will continue to say it , that if people actually followed the true teachings of religion , any religion , the world would be a better place . I am Christian but I will defend any of the major religions against such knee jerk and ill thought out critisicm . Religion never says "hate your fellow man " only people with their agendas who twist the minds of others and try to make their hatred acceptable by saying that it is acceptable to whatever God they worship .

It never fails to amaze me that , for instance , people who kill in the name of Islam don't for a moment sit down and read the Koran and realise that what they intend to do is really against everything that Islam stands for . Ditto "Christians " who ignore Christ's teaching that we should "love our enemies and do good to them that hate us " Also we are told to "treat our fellow man as we would wish to be treated " Does this sound like a religion that encourages the evil of slavery or rape , no .

Anyone who acts in these ways is going against Christian teaching not following it .

What about all the missionaries often risking their lives to bring medical aid and education to people who would otherwise not get any ? This is true religion , to show Christ's love for the world in tangible ways that make a difference to people's lives .

Booker-t try asking your co-worker if it doesn't say in the Bible about not judging others lest you be judged !!!

35

Does being a "born in" blur parental vs JW issues?

by obfuscatetheobvious in

thank you to the many people who have posted their experiences and advice on this site!

i have browsed a few topics but the threads that i seem to gravitate to the most deal with family.

there is certainly a lot that i can relate to in many of the anecdotes i have read.

jhine

Obfuse , we are not and have never been JW's and my husband has no religious belief at all ,but when our son got to his teens ( I don't know how old you are ) it was like the young stag in the herd trying to challenge the old leader , and the leader not having any of it . There were times when my husband and son actually squared up to each other in our lounge , like someone already said sometimes I could calm it down , sometimes I just got out of the way ! However I know that they loved each other dearly and much of it was male pride , the young buck not wanting to accept the rules and the old stag not wanting to be seen as giving in and so looking weak .

That clash of personality and pride and independance , or trying to assert independance , is common to most species .

We have a daughter also and for many of her teenage years she and I clashed , two women in one house , same kind of issues !

Don't agree with JW doctrine , but sometimes it is just human nature to blame for our relationship problems

150

YHWH v YHVH - yes, V not W

by *lost* in

god's real name and identity yhvh.

yhwh - fraudulent identity.. .

can we all sue wt for evidenced fraud and deliberate deception ??

jhine

PLEASE PLEASE , does anyone have any information on whether Jews sometimes call God "the firstborn of creation " someone on this site with all the combined knowledge that is apparent (yes I will resort to flattery ) must surely know something that I don't ( not difficult )

42

JULY 15th Study Watchtower - NEW LIGHT IS FANTASY

by The Searcher in

the july 15 study watchtower uses all 4 study articles to try to inculcate into every witnesses' mind that the governing body is indisputably god's sole channel of communication on earth.

to do so, it uses a multitude of scriptures along with seriously flawed un-inspired reasoning.

the foundation stone of this watchtower's blatant agenda is the claim that when jesus used only a few to dispense the physical food to the many, he was setting a principle which would be applied to the distribution of spiritual food after he returned to heaven.

jhine

I asked my witness friends what they thought of the new light and they did not seem to reslise that the articles wre saying that the GB is now solely the fds . They just did not seem to understand the importance of what they had read at alll.! They felt that it had made some stuff clearer and were happy with the whole thing . I tried to say that the GB had now claimed total fds status and they looked at me blankly . Anyone else had this response ?