Posts by simwitness

73

"Jehovah Has ALWAYS Had An Organization"

by minimus in

jw
friends

what do you say to that statement?

simwitness

In a discussion with an elder friend, he stated:

I am puzzled in as much as to the degree you are against organization. Over all my years the only successful people, businesses, sports and whatever are those that are organized. The most successful are the ones that recognize that organization is not a bad thing but necessary, the very universe could not succeed without it. So in conclusion, the creator, expects us to follow his lead Jeremiah 10:23. There are many things not revealed at this time but as we progress in the truth they will become apparent. It will probably be the best not to get to heavy in our discussions on this matter as the organization is necessary and good. without it there would be anarchy as seen worldwide outside of Jehovah's Organization

And I responded:

There really isn't a puzzle here at all.

I am not against organization. As you said, organization is not only a "good thing" but is also demonstrated by all of creation.

What I have said is that salvation, faith, and works of faith do not REQUIRE being a member of any "earthly organization". (The "thief" on the cross next to Christ is a prime example of this; Luke 23:39-43). I have also said that "organized religion" is a concept of man, and is therefore faulty at best.

The early Bible Students also felt this way:
--------------
"Beware of "organization." It is wholly un-necessary. The Bible will be the only rules you need. Do not
seek to bind other consciences, and do not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you
can understand God's word today, and so continue to growing in grace and knowledge day by day."Zion's Watch Tower, 1895, p. 216 --------------

I also believe that "Jehovah's Organization" exists outside the bounds/bonds of any single earthly organizaton. It is only man's arrogance to try and confine it to any single "thing" or definition.

I do not define "Jehovah's Organization" (or confine it) to the member's of the WTBS. I also do not exclude them from that organization.

Faith is a personal thing, and I choose to put my faith and my service strictly to the creator's care. I do not put my faith in the writings or teachings of any man, or into any "revealed truths" to said men. That does not mean that there is nothing to be learned from them, but my faith, and my service belong to god, and god alone. I have faith that he will guide my steps, and I pray daily for such guidance.

And I left it at that... By the way, he accused me of taking the Watchtower quote out of context, even though he had no access (to my knowledge) to base his claim on.

34

Got a phone call from my Elder dad

by Elsewhere in

jw
friends

for those who don't know by background, i was raised in the organization, third generation.

there are many elders, two anointed, a po and many pioneers in my family with all sorts of contact with cos, dos, and people in bethel.

to get to my point... my father just called me.

simwitness

Elsewhere...

Do you realize just how close I came to calling MY elder dad to see if he had heard this? And if he hadn't to be prepared for the assemby when he would??

It will happen. They have backed off of the "presence of 1914" issue to the "cleansing of 1919" so much it will only be a little longer and they will talk about the "seperation of 1935" and forget the rest. I guess next it will be the "Testing of 1975" and the "generation of 1995"... oops, they've already used the generation thing...

oh well...

Thanks elsewhere...

9

WACTH TOWER EMPHASIS - Part Two

by Deleted in

jw
friends

morning all.. this is very much a work-in-progress.

if you would like the excel file that currently has about 150 words/phrases and 150 scriptures sorted according to usage from the russell years compared to 1950-1992 and 1993-1999 please email me.

i am still looking for a full range of scriptures and key/loaded words.

simwitness

ok, I think I found the difference in how we are researching (on Luke 21:8 specifically)

I used the index of the 1999 CD, and it had 2 references to that scripture, and only then in the 1930-1986 section.

One Reference is in the 1964 WT, strangely enough in an article entitled "Wolves in sheeps clothing" and then again in the "ni" book (is that the insight book?)

If you switch to the 86-99 Index, it has no mention.

If you do a search for "Luke 21:8", you will get a number of hits, but a quick review shows them to referencing the entire sections of Luke 21, but never specifically verse 8. the few contexts I saw, they did not even reference the warning of verse 8. in the index for 86-99, Luke 21:8 never shows up, although vs 7 and 9 do.

Which of course is no surprise, since Christ specifically tells his followers:

He said: "Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, I am he, and, The due time has approached. Do not go after them.

Afgter your response, I had to go "look it up" again, to clarify what I remembered the last time I did it.

Now I have to go defrag my Computer and get rid off all them WT "demons" :)

Edited by - simwitness on 15 February 2003 21:8:5

9

WACTH TOWER EMPHASIS - Part Two

by Deleted in

jw
friends

morning all.. this is very much a work-in-progress.

if you would like the excel file that currently has about 150 words/phrases and 150 scriptures sorted according to usage from the russell years compared to 1950-1992 and 1993-1999 please email me.

i am still looking for a full range of scriptures and key/loaded words.

simwitness

Deleted--

I enjoy these comparisons. I would like to make a comment/suggestion that might make for an intersting part 2.

For me, many times what is more interesting about what a group says/teaches is what is NOT said.

For example, If I wanted to follow a true christian/bible study group, I would expect that over a years worth of study articles nearly ALL of the bible would be gone over, and more importantly all of Christ's word's (those words in "red" in alot of bibles) would be studied at least ONCE. (we are talking Christians, right?)

Well, in light of this, what I would love to see (and I am too lazy to compose myself, since I already have an opinion) would be stats on:

1. What scriptures are specifically "ignored" - for example, look up Luke 21:8 (or that entire passage, you know, when Christ specifically tells the followers whom not to follow) and you will probably find that it has not been referenced at all in the past 50-60-100 years.

2. If this is a christian fellowhip, you would expect to see more emphasis on the New Testament. so, of all of the scriptures cited, what is the ratio of old testmant to new testament?

See, these are the points that tell me that the JWs are not "bible students" at all, but are merely students of the Watchtower Org and the parts of the bible that the WTBS say are "worthy" of study.

Another curios part, specific to the WTBS itself, would be to see the change in number of references to it's "leaders" and how that has changed thru the decades. I find it "cuiros and curioser" that recently more JWs know about Charles Russel than ever before. When I mentioned that name to my dad "years" ago, he had never heard it. When I mentioned it more recently, he seemed to know more. Is it perhaps cyclical? or in direct response to the fact that the WTBS can no longer hide it history (thanks to the internet and other sources of info)?

22

1919.WTBS Inc.'s holy year!

by MacHislopp in

jw
friends

by the wtbs inc. as years with a special and/or

(part one )

"jehovah's witnesss in the divine purpose " published by the wtbs inc. .

simwitness

Something that you did not cover, but I find much more revealing to the 1919 "special year" is in this:

This was the year that Rutherford (and other) the "two witnesses" were released from Captivity.

(They were let out of Jail.)

Remember that they were jailed for anti-sedition (is that the correct term?) based upon writings within the book "The Finished Mystery" that basically told people not to join the military and that the US was "bad". (this is a synopsis, not a quote).

They were released from prison when they AGREED to remove those chapters from the book. Jehovah/Jesus had nothing to do with their release from captivity, since they negotiated thier release by altering their teachings.

(They later re-added the pages, but since the war was over, no one really cared).

I think there is some details of this in either proclaimers or the Revelation -Climax book. I will see if I can look it up.

12

Sunday's WT study

by RunningMan in

jw
friends

i need some information, and i hope that someone on this forum can help me.. yesterday, my mother in law was telling my wife about the wonderful wt study yesterday morning.

apparently, it was the one where they discuss the annual report for last year.. she mentioned that the article pointed to a 30% increase in baptisms.

since we don't have the article, we have no idea what she is talking about.

simwitness

Lets see if I can get the math straight:

6,304,645 publishers, a 3.1% increase.

= 190,000 new "publishers".

Number of hours to "convert" each one:

1,202,381,302 divided by the number of new converts = 6328 hours invested.

Must be a real hard sell. If we were to look in the book of Acts, seems that the conversion took only minutes (if that) before the "Great Apostacy".

This also means that each publisher spent 190 hours in the field service, or aproximately 4 hours per week.

Just think of the good that could be done if they put that amount of resources toward something interesting, like helping the homeless, neighborhood programs, etc...

16

Same Old Same Old New Light

by Stephanus in

jw
friends

in the march 15 watchtower there is an article entitled the early christians and the mosaic law.

it takes a watchtower style look at the debates over what relevance the law had that took place in the early christian era.

this is the passage that sums it all up for the loyal dub (of course):.

simwitness

wait a minute, wait a minute...

What's this bogus question:

If I had lived at that time, how would I have responded as God's will was progressivly revealed?

1. Last I checked, there was so much "pouring out" of the holy spirit that there was no "progressive revealing" of anything. Those that knew, knew.

2. The major thing to note, especially in Acts, is that there was much disagreement about things, so much so that they (the holy spirit directed ones, mind you) had arguments over what was right/wrong, neccesary and unneccesary.

3. Show me one scripture/passage etc... that points to a "progressive revealing". Point to one passage that says "My will be revealed to you as I see fit" from God/Holy Spirit/Christ. Everything that I have ever read was very cut/dry. (helps when it is written after the fact, of course)

Yes, Life in itself is a journey, and many things are revealed to us on it. If I were to claim "direction by the holy spirit" or to be "God's Mouthpiece" I had better not need to do any backpedaling.

Such a subtle little question that is, simply because it leads the reader to believe, without proof, that there was a "progressive revealing" of anything. Best I could tell, God's Will at that point was very clear cut. Believe in Christ and you live, dont believe and you die. (and since everyone that was alive at that point is now dead, kinda hard to say where that got them).

25

Is the GB and FDS the same thing?

by William Penwell in

jw
friends

this may have come up before in discussion so my apologies if it old stuff.

interesting point that the district overseer seemed to make a distinction between the governing body and the faithful and discreet slave class.

when i was growing up it was always the same thing.

simwitness

The Faithful and Discreet slave and it's Governing Body

I always thought the point of the "Faithful and Discreet Slave" was that he/she did not NEED GOVERNING! He did what he was supposed to do, period. I also don't remember anyhting in the parable that says that the slave had a checklist or set of rules to follow.

After all, when the master returned, he found that everything was as it should be, and then appointed the slave over all the belongings (which is kinda strange, if you think about it, since apparently while the master was gone, the slave was, in affect, master over all the belongings...)

Edited to add: If you took a survey of who the FD&S were, it would be in favor of the Governing Body/headquarters/writers of the materials. The "Rank and File" would never suggest they were part of that class, unless they were part of the "annointed". I am pretty sure taht other than those that get fed at the memorial, the annointed in the congregations are not looked at in any special way.

Edited by - simwitness on 4 February 2003 14:12:17

26

Cain Killed Abel

by Windchaser in

abel.

he loved cain, he took care of cain.

cain would fall into a lake and pretend he was drowning.

simwitness

So, was Cain the founding member of PETA?

20

WT admits error.

by refiners fire in

i just had a look through ray franz two books and i didnt see this information in there.

though i cant escape the vague feeling it might be in isocf.

if ray has already used this example, apologies.... .

simwitness

Another minor point:

I don't have specific proof of this, but I understand that the "Studies" were still available on the Watchtower order forms up until the 50-60s. The finished mystery was edited/reprinted in a smaller version (cut out the Ezekial bits) in 1927.