Posts by simwitness

51

JAH REASONS WITH DICTATORS OF SODOM

by You Know in

peter once wrote concerning paul's writings, saying: "in them, however, are some things hard to understand" that being the case, it is understandable why jehovah opened his long-running dialogue with israel, through isaiah, by saying: "my own people have not behaved understandingly.

" further, in that 1st chapter, at verse 10, jehovah addresses the leaders of his people saying: "hear the word of jehovah, you dictators of sodom.

give ear to the law of our god, you people of gomorrah.

simwitness

You know,

Your response is about the closest thing to a non-response I have ever seen you post.

Have a nice day!

51

JAH REASONS WITH DICTATORS OF SODOM

by You Know in

peter once wrote concerning paul's writings, saying: "in them, however, are some things hard to understand" that being the case, it is understandable why jehovah opened his long-running dialogue with israel, through isaiah, by saying: "my own people have not behaved understandingly.

" further, in that 1st chapter, at verse 10, jehovah addresses the leaders of his people saying: "hear the word of jehovah, you dictators of sodom.

give ear to the law of our god, you people of gomorrah.

simwitness

So, even if that presumption is correct, your logic is still faulty based on my other statements.

Secondly, IMO, the trinity does not speak to God's identity, but more so to his nature... which again are two different things.

And, I am not debating the validity/non validity of the Trinity doctrine, nor am I stating which view I hold, just your use of it as your "basis" for the statement that only JWs can have a relationship with God.

51

JAH REASONS WITH DICTATORS OF SODOM

by You Know in

peter once wrote concerning paul's writings, saying: "in them, however, are some things hard to understand" that being the case, it is understandable why jehovah opened his long-running dialogue with israel, through isaiah, by saying: "my own people have not behaved understandingly.

" further, in that 1st chapter, at verse 10, jehovah addresses the leaders of his people saying: "hear the word of jehovah, you dictators of sodom.

give ear to the law of our god, you people of gomorrah.

simwitness

You Know...

Thanks for the response, however, your logic is a bit flawed here, on at least 2 levels.

1. You presume that you are correct as it applies to the nature of God (Trinity vs. Non-Trinity). While I do not profess to understand or know the absolute answer to that question, I can say that I have heard BIBLICAL arguments on both sides that were very convincing. The same applies to the covenent you speak of.

2. You paint with a very broad brush.

That rules out any and all religions that claim that Christ is God, or other such Trinitarian nonsensical double-talk, which is pretty much all of Christendom.

and

Christendom though is basically cluless about the new covenant and what it entails, which betrays them as having no basis for their claims

For 2 reasons:

One, I am reasonably sure you have not studied every aspect of "christendom" in order to know wether or not your claims are valid, you simply assume that they are. Secondly, you state that it is "pretty much all of christendom", what about the "others" ??

So, the "basis" for your statement:

But, the truth is that Christendom has no basis for claiming any sort of relationship with God, but we do

Is based on assumptions that you cannot prove, and an assumption about what others do/do not understand or believe. Beyond that, you are presuming to dictate to God who he will or will not have a relationship with based on YOUR understanding of things.

I would never presume to state who can and cannot have a "relationship" with God.

I would further that your first statment, however, is essentially correct:

The basis for having a relationship with God is very simple, a person has to know something about God

And would only change it to this:

The basis for having a relationship with God is very simple, a person has to have a desire to know something about God.

And this, pretty much includes EVERYONE.

51

JAH REASONS WITH DICTATORS OF SODOM

by You Know in

peter once wrote concerning paul's writings, saying: "in them, however, are some things hard to understand" that being the case, it is understandable why jehovah opened his long-running dialogue with israel, through isaiah, by saying: "my own people have not behaved understandingly.

" further, in that 1st chapter, at verse 10, jehovah addresses the leaders of his people saying: "hear the word of jehovah, you dictators of sodom.

give ear to the law of our god, you people of gomorrah.

simwitness

You Know...

But, the truth is that Christendom has no basis for claiming any sort of relationship with God, but we do

Here we go again, please state the "basis" for that claim. And you cannot use suppositions or simple "Faith that it is so" as evidence of the claim. (Since they could be used by any member of "christendom" to support their claim as well).

One amusing observation: The hypocrisy of my apostate opponents is evident in that apostates claim to be the only ones to be able to think for themselves, and that all of Jehovah's Witnesses have been brainwashed by the Watchtower Society. And, yet, when presented with a well-thought out scriptural explanation that deals with their accusation against us, and yet is not what the Watchtower teaches, the retort is--- 'The Watchtower doesn't say that.YK is an apostate.' LOL

Ironically, when we use the same arguments that you do against the WTBS, you call us apostates.

LOL.

134

THE DILEMMA FACING APOSTATES

by You Know in

the dilemma facing apostate jehovahs witnesses, or apostate dubs, as i have dubbed them, (no pun intended) is the very fact of their seeming success.

one of the great ironies of the apostate movement, that presumptuously boasts of "know the truth about the truth," is that apostates themselves are bound by the watchtower's own interpretive shortcomings, and hence are massively ignorant of jehovahs judicial decisions regarding his organization.

in that the presumption in operation is that if enough scandal and error can be brought to light regarding the governing body, the watchtower society's teachings, as well as individual jehovah's witnesses, then that somehow means that jehovah's witnesses have no connection with jehovah god.

simwitness

Re: THE DILEMMA FACING APOSTATES

Jul 23, 2002 12:56

You Know...

Simiwitness.
I was wondering how long it would take for you to start the name calling and personal attacks..
I haven't called you any names nor have I attacked you personally.

What do you call this?

Are you so illiterate that you cannot supply the verses for yourself?

In my estimation, that is a personal attack, attempting to discredit me in the face of others. (I do not care to discuss this specific issue further, as it serves no real pourpose).

Now, onto this comment:

The dictionary definiton of faith is irrelevant. I cited the Bible's definition of faith. That's what we are talking about, right, using the Bible? Or are you unaware of what Hebrews 11:1 says?

Are you actually serious here? Let's look at the NIV translation of Hebrews 11:1.

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see

and the NWT:

Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld.

Not sure there is a real difference between the two Bible definitions, and certainly no real difference than the one I offered from websters. "evident demonstration of realities not beheld" is not, of itself, evidence of them.

Secondly, you said "demonstratble reality of things not beheld" which is very different than the "evident demonstration of realties not beheld". You simply cannot demonstrate things that are not seen. (Don't use the wind, since you can physically feel the wind, you are in essence, seeing it, or atleast "beholding" it).

Evidence is a noun, a thing, while "evident" is an adjective used to describe that thing. (or are you so illiterate you need to take basic English again?? )

However, having faith that something is so, does not make it so.

I was going to discuss the Luke 21:8 bit further, but I believe that has already been discussed at length on this board, If you want to discuss that further, please let me know.

12

Amazing.... what white bubble?

by FiveShadows in

jw
friends

you saidl "first, you scroll over what you want to quote from another person's comments, then.

copy it.

then, you past it where you want it and add return strokes to assure it is.

simwitness

ok, so the "quote" thing surrounded by square brackets still works! if you hit reply, you should see the code inline...

Have fun!

12

Amazing.... what white bubble?

by FiveShadows in

jw
friends

you saidl "first, you scroll over what you want to quote from another person's comments, then.

copy it.

then, you past it where you want it and add return strokes to assure it is.

simwitness

FiveShadows...

If you dont see the toolbars, then you "probably" do not have Java enabled, or have a higher security setting which is preventing the applet from loading.

The "old" method for quoting things was to surrond the text you want quoted with

and

.

Windows 98 should be fine, check your browser security and advanced settings to make sure that Java is enabled. Medium security should be a fine defualt setting, unless you are oiverly paranoid about these things.

134

THE DILEMMA FACING APOSTATES

by You Know in

the dilemma facing apostate jehovahs witnesses, or apostate dubs, as i have dubbed them, (no pun intended) is the very fact of their seeming success.

one of the great ironies of the apostate movement, that presumptuously boasts of "know the truth about the truth," is that apostates themselves are bound by the watchtower's own interpretive shortcomings, and hence are massively ignorant of jehovahs judicial decisions regarding his organization.

in that the presumption in operation is that if enough scandal and error can be brought to light regarding the governing body, the watchtower society's teachings, as well as individual jehovah's witnesses, then that somehow means that jehovah's witnesses have no connection with jehovah god.

simwitness

That's silly. I referred to Christ's command to put away the sword. Do I really have to cite chapter and verse? I referred to Christ's command to preach about him and his kingdom. Are you so illiterate that you cannot supply the verses for yourself?

I was wondering how long it would take for you to start the name calling and personal attacks..

No, I recognized the references, and I also recognized your "reasoning" on them. I countered that with the simple fact that other christian organizations can (and often do) claim the same thing. You have not presented any clear scriptural evidence that uniquely identifies the WTBS as "God's Organization" (or the center of his "Spiritual Organization" for that matter).

More correctly, it is a matter of faith, faith being the "demonstratble reality of things not beheld."

Well, Webster's definition of Faith is a little different:

Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.
Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keeping faith with one's supporters.
often FaithChristianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
The body of dogma of a religion: the Muslim faith.
A set of principles or beliefs.

so, faith is not "demonstratble reality of things not beheld". How can it be demonstrable if it is not "beheld"...???

No, you dodn't get it. The decoupling will occur at God's hand when the Watchtower goes face down in the mud

Well, apparently you don't get it. Perhaps "God's Hand" is happening right now and you are faced with a decision on what you will do next, based on the evidence you already "know" about the org. You are looking for a big "visible event", when the only one that matters is the event that happens in your heart

Those who have faith will make the right choice because Jehovah's angels will help them

Yep, and many of us "apostates" have already done so. What will you do?

Oh, and btw, when the shakeup occured in 1916-1919 within the "Organization" the apostates (by definition) did gain control of the WTBS. But that is a topic for another thread.

Edited by - simwitness on 23 July 2002 12:36:14

Edited by - simwitness on 23 July 2002 12:39:5

134

THE DILEMMA FACING APOSTATES

by You Know in

the dilemma facing apostate jehovahs witnesses, or apostate dubs, as i have dubbed them, (no pun intended) is the very fact of their seeming success.

one of the great ironies of the apostate movement, that presumptuously boasts of "know the truth about the truth," is that apostates themselves are bound by the watchtower's own interpretive shortcomings, and hence are massively ignorant of jehovahs judicial decisions regarding his organization.

in that the presumption in operation is that if enough scandal and error can be brought to light regarding the governing body, the watchtower society's teachings, as well as individual jehovah's witnesses, then that somehow means that jehovah's witnesses have no connection with jehovah god.

simwitness

I answered the posters questions reasoning from the Scriptures. Obviously you have no response except to advance your own delusion that I somehow didn't answer the question. / You Know

But, you have not answered the question showing biblical SCRIPTURE as proof that the WTBS is "God's Organization" on the earth. You have only shown your "reasoning from the scriptures" that lead you to "think" that it is the "real deal".

Those are undeniable facts. No other religious organization can even come close to measuring up as regards obeying Christ.

That, is still a matter of OPINION. In fact you have even stated that

First off, the WT is largely a pubishing company, so it is not really Jehovah's organization. Jehovah's organization, as I pointed out, is a spiritual organization.

And on that, we agreed. (or I assume we did anyway).

The real "Dilemma" that you face, You Know, is now that you have admitted that

So, I believe that the final test that will come upon Jehovah's Witnesses will be the decoupling of our faith from the Watchtower organization.

You have to decide what you will do next. IF you stay, you are a hypocrite, and if you decouple, then you join us "apostates". For you, that must be one hell of a dilemma.

I will comment on your Luke 21:8 ramble a bit later.

134

THE DILEMMA FACING APOSTATES

by You Know in

the dilemma facing apostate jehovahs witnesses, or apostate dubs, as i have dubbed them, (no pun intended) is the very fact of their seeming success.

one of the great ironies of the apostate movement, that presumptuously boasts of "know the truth about the truth," is that apostates themselves are bound by the watchtower's own interpretive shortcomings, and hence are massively ignorant of jehovahs judicial decisions regarding his organization.

in that the presumption in operation is that if enough scandal and error can be brought to light regarding the governing body, the watchtower society's teachings, as well as individual jehovah's witnesses, then that somehow means that jehovah's witnesses have no connection with jehovah god.

simwitness

Is that it Simiwitness? Anything else? / You Know

You Know,

Nope, just now getting back to the board.

First off, the WT is largely a pubishing company, so it is not really Jehovah's organization. Jehovah's organization, as I pointed out, is a spiritual organization.

No argument here.

Nonetheless, the Watchtower is at the center of that organization at the present time. So, in the previous thread I provided a few reasons why I think Jehovah's Witnesses are the real deal based upon the fact that we recognize Christ as our leader.

OK, so you "think" that they ar the real deal. Again, I have no problem with that, since that becomes your OPINION and is not based on anything other than your own perceptions of things. Many other organizations outside of the JW would and do say the same thing.

The question posed however, was for biblical proof that they are, and not your "thinking" on the matter. So at this point we agree on two things:

1. That "Jehovah's Organization" is a spiritual organization.

2. That you "think" that the organization known as "Jehovah's Witnesses" is the center of it. (I do not agree with this, since if Christ is our leader, he must certainly be the "center" of it.)

You did not answer the second question at all.

If Christ is your leader, how can you ignore his SPECIFIC instructions at Luke 21:8?

Secondly, you stated:

But, the apostolic warning is: "Do not believe every inspired expression, knowing that many false prophets have gone forth into the world."

And exactly how would you recognize a false prophet? How many lies does it take?

And more importantly, once you recognize an organization (any organization) as that (a false prophet) why would you stay?

You have already stated that Jehovah's Organization is a spiritual one, how can aligning oneself with an earthly organization that is blatently NOT recognizing Christ as their leader be a good thing?

Those that have already recognized that and left the "earthly organization" in favor of the "spiritual organization" are not apostates at all. As you said:

So, I believe that the final test that will come upon Jehovah's Witnesses will be the decoupling of our faith from the Watchtower organization.

So, why do you call us apostate simply because we have already "decoupled" from the Watchtower, especially considering the fact that they are mearly a "publishing corporation"?