Pot, this is the kettle... you're black.
simwitness
JoinedPosts by simwitness
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21
A little gem from the latest WT
by dmouse in.
it never ceases to amaze me the propensity that the wbts has of seeing the straw in someone else's eye but not the rafter in their own.
this little gem is from the latest july 15th watchtower, page 22. .
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5
"You disfellowship yourself - cop out..."
by confuzcious ini was talking to an elder today and called him on several points.. one of the points was that the org disfellowships people for unscriptural reasons.. i gave examples of a gambler (yes, the bible talks about greediness, but it's silent on gambling.
) being involved in boxing.
etc.. anyway, he said that, "well it's not the organization that disfellowships... but in actuality, the persons disfellowship themselves.. what is your guys response???.
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simwitness
While it may be the individual that chooses to do the actions that they would be disfellowshiped for, it is the organization that carries out the punishment.
Otherwise there would be no judicial committees, no formal announcements, etc.
It is the punishment that is being debated, not the "root cause" of said punishment.
Ask the elder if the guy at the electric chair chose to be executed. Likely he would say that they did. In reality it is the judicial system that chose the appropriate punishment for the action. (this is not to debate right/wrong of the death penalty, it is simply an example).
For the witnesses it is simple black/white decision. They allow little grey area. They state:
"Whoever that is not with us, is against us", when in fact they should be stating " Whoever is not against us, is with us".
While it may seem to be the same statement, there is a subtle difference.
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8
'You cant blame God for the mistakes his Org. makes!'
by Hamas ini had a discussion with an 'associate' i used to know back in my meeting days last night.
he really did show what it means to be a brainwashed victim of the watchtower.
i told him about false prophecies, and how the wt claims to be a true prophet of god.
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simwitness
you're exactly right... I can't blame God for the mistakes of "his" org... But I damn sure can hold them (the org) accountable for said mistakes!
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There are no contradictions or inconsistencies!!
by greven ini found a funny site demonstrating the mental gymnastics employed by christian apologetics to refute contradictions.. .
enjoy!.
are there really contradictions in startrek?
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simwitness
Refiners:
At least Star Trek offers a vision of Hope for ALL mankind... even if we do have a WW3 and a Eugenics war in the 1990s...
oh wait, maybe they are false prophets too?
I.D.I.C.
:)
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Watchtower says JW meetings follow the 1st century model
by ozziepost inmodern dub meetings follow the format of the first century christian meetings, or is that vice versa?
subliminal messages reinforce the message found in the watchtower of november 15, 2002. page six shows a picture of st paul's basilica in rome with the message that this is not the place for "spiritual refreshment".
the facing page (p7) shows an illustration of what is purported to be a meeting of first century christians.
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simwitness
hmmmm....
methinks that in the first century there was no "bible" to study.
methinks that the limit to the "get togethers" in the first century were for fellowship and upbuilding with others of "like mind"
if there were studies, it would have been of the "old testament" writings only, since none of the "new testament" existed.
I doubt seriously that there were any "formal" meetings, just "gatherings" of followers.
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simwitness
In a discussion with an elder friend, he stated:
I am puzzled in as much as to the degree you are against organization. Over all my years the only successful people, businesses, sports and whatever are those that are organized. The most successful are the ones that recognize that organization is not a bad thing but necessary, the very universe could not succeed without it. So in conclusion, the creator, expects us to follow his lead Jeremiah 10:23. There are many things not revealed at this time but as we progress in the truth they will become apparent. It will probably be the best not to get to heavy in our discussions on this matter as the organization is necessary and good. without it there would be anarchy as seen worldwide outside of Jehovah's Organization
And I responded:
There really isn't a puzzle here at all.
I am not against organization. As you said, organization is not only a "good thing" but is also demonstrated by all of creation.
What I have said is that salvation, faith, and works of faith do not REQUIRE being a member of any "earthly organization". (The "thief" on the cross next to Christ is a prime example of this; Luke 23:39-43). I have also said that "organized religion" is a concept of man, and is therefore faulty at best.
The early Bible Students also felt this way:
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"Beware of "organization." It is wholly un-necessary. The Bible will be the only rules you need. Do not
seek to bind other consciences, and do not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you
can understand God's word today, and so continue to growing in grace and knowledge day by day."Zion's Watch Tower, 1895, p. 216 --------------
I also believe that "Jehovah's Organization" exists outside the bounds/bonds of any single earthly organizaton. It is only man's arrogance to try and confine it to any single "thing" or definition.
I do not define "Jehovah's Organization" (or confine it) to the member's of the WTBS. I also do not exclude them from that organization.
Faith is a personal thing, and I choose to put my faith and my service strictly to the creator's care. I do not put my faith in the writings or teachings of any man, or into any "revealed truths" to said men. That does not mean that there is nothing to be learned from them, but my faith, and my service belong to god, and god alone. I have faith that he will guide my steps, and I pray daily for such guidance.And I left it at that... By the way, he accused me of taking the Watchtower quote out of context, even though he had no access (to my knowledge) to base his claim on.
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Got a phone call from my Elder dad
by Elsewhere infor those who don't know by background, i was raised in the organization, third generation.
there are many elders, two anointed, a po and many pioneers in my family with all sorts of contact with cos, dos, and people in bethel.
to get to my point... my father just called me.
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simwitness
Elsewhere...
Do you realize just how close I came to calling MY elder dad to see if he had heard this? And if he hadn't to be prepared for the assemby when he would??
It will happen. They have backed off of the "presence of 1914" issue to the "cleansing of 1919" so much it will only be a little longer and they will talk about the "seperation of 1935" and forget the rest. I guess next it will be the "Testing of 1975" and the "generation of 1995"... oops, they've already used the generation thing...
oh well...
Thanks elsewhere...
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9
WACTH TOWER EMPHASIS - Part Two
by Deleted inmorning all.. this is very much a work-in-progress.
if you would like the excel file that currently has about 150 words/phrases and 150 scriptures sorted according to usage from the russell years compared to 1950-1992 and 1993-1999 please email me.
i am still looking for a full range of scriptures and key/loaded words.
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simwitness
ok, I think I found the difference in how we are researching (on Luke 21:8 specifically)
I used the index of the 1999 CD, and it had 2 references to that scripture, and only then in the 1930-1986 section.
One Reference is in the 1964 WT, strangely enough in an article entitled "Wolves in sheeps clothing" and then again in the "ni" book (is that the insight book?)
If you switch to the 86-99 Index, it has no mention.
If you do a search for "Luke 21:8", you will get a number of hits, but a quick review shows them to referencing the entire sections of Luke 21, but never specifically verse 8. the few contexts I saw, they did not even reference the warning of verse 8. in the index for 86-99, Luke 21:8 never shows up, although vs 7 and 9 do.
Which of course is no surprise, since Christ specifically tells his followers:
He said: "Look out that YOU are not misled; for many will come on the basis of my name, saying, I am he, and, The due time has approached. Do not go after them.
Afgter your response, I had to go "look it up" again, to clarify what I remembered the last time I did it.
Now I have to go defrag my Computer and get rid off all them WT "demons" :)
Edited by - simwitness on 15 February 2003 21:8:5
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WACTH TOWER EMPHASIS - Part Two
by Deleted inmorning all.. this is very much a work-in-progress.
if you would like the excel file that currently has about 150 words/phrases and 150 scriptures sorted according to usage from the russell years compared to 1950-1992 and 1993-1999 please email me.
i am still looking for a full range of scriptures and key/loaded words.
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simwitness
Deleted--
I enjoy these comparisons. I would like to make a comment/suggestion that might make for an intersting part 2.
For me, many times what is more interesting about what a group says/teaches is what is NOT said.
For example, If I wanted to follow a true christian/bible study group, I would expect that over a years worth of study articles nearly ALL of the bible would be gone over, and more importantly all of Christ's word's (those words in "red" in alot of bibles) would be studied at least ONCE. (we are talking Christians, right?)
Well, in light of this, what I would love to see (and I am too lazy to compose myself, since I already have an opinion) would be stats on:
1. What scriptures are specifically "ignored" - for example, look up Luke 21:8 (or that entire passage, you know, when Christ specifically tells the followers whom not to follow) and you will probably find that it has not been referenced at all in the past 50-60-100 years.
2. If this is a christian fellowhip, you would expect to see more emphasis on the New Testament. so, of all of the scriptures cited, what is the ratio of old testmant to new testament?
See, these are the points that tell me that the JWs are not "bible students" at all, but are merely students of the Watchtower Org and the parts of the bible that the WTBS say are "worthy" of study.
Another curios part, specific to the WTBS itself, would be to see the change in number of references to it's "leaders" and how that has changed thru the decades. I find it "cuiros and curioser" that recently more JWs know about Charles Russel than ever before. When I mentioned that name to my dad "years" ago, he had never heard it. When I mentioned it more recently, he seemed to know more. Is it perhaps cyclical? or in direct response to the fact that the WTBS can no longer hide it history (thanks to the internet and other sources of info)?
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1919.WTBS Inc.'s holy year!
by MacHislopp inby the wtbs inc. as years with a special and/or
(part one )
"jehovah's witnesss in the divine purpose " published by the wtbs inc. .
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simwitness
Something that you did not cover, but I find much more revealing to the 1919 "special year" is in this:
This was the year that Rutherford (and other) the "two witnesses" were released from Captivity.
(They were let out of Jail.)
Remember that they were jailed for anti-sedition (is that the correct term?) based upon writings within the book "The Finished Mystery" that basically told people not to join the military and that the US was "bad". (this is a synopsis, not a quote).
They were released from prison when they AGREED to remove those chapters from the book. Jehovah/Jesus had nothing to do with their release from captivity, since they negotiated thier release by altering their teachings.
(They later re-added the pages, but since the war was over, no one really cared).
I think there is some details of this in either proclaimers or the Revelation -Climax book. I will see if I can look it up.