Posts by Blotty

28

An interesting Observation of some Bibles

by Blotty in

first of all, hi, i go by blotty on this website :) i am someone who has a passion for the bible and like to get a as balanced view as i can from the trinitarian and the jw (or unitarian) side - even though i come off as leaning towards one or the other at times, in my opinion they both have merits in certain cases..if this is in the wrong section i apologise - this is just something i found interesting.iv seen online a lot that say the watchtower and tract society "invented" the link between proverbs 8:22 - 30 and jesus (the word).

yet interestingly some "mainstream" "trinitarian- aimed" translations are cross referencing the following:source:https://www.biblegateway.comprov 8:22 cr rev 3:14niv, gnt,esv, nasb, nasb1995, nasbre, cevprov 8:30 cr john 1:1,2 esv nasbprov 8:30 cr john 1:3esvnasb1995nasb(this list is by no means complete)if this is simply wisdom, why is it referenced with jesus (or the word)?.

Blotty

deleted

66

"outside of time" argument

by Blotty in

this is going to be very brief but a user recently tried to argue an argument that has already been refuted many times - the logic is somewhat sound but falls apart when the definition to the word used it looked and its usages in the bible.the word in question is "aionas" found in the scripture in question hebrews 1:2 .

(https://biblehub.com/hebrews/1-2.htm#lexicon)for starters look at the biblehub translations - do any of them state "outside of time" or that time was "created" in this moment - no because this seems to be heavily inspired by greek philosophy rather than the bible itself.note: i am not saying this word does not mean eternity or anything of the sort, i am saying this scripture some of the claims i dispute and can easily disprove, hence the argument is laughable.. bill mounce defines the word as:pr.

a period of time of significant character; life; an era; an age: hence, a state of things marking an age or era; the present order of nature; the natural condition of man, the world; ὁ αἰών, illimitable duration, eternity; as also, οἱ αἰῶνες, ὁ αἰῶν τῶν αἰώνων, οἱ αἰῶνες τῶν αἰώνων; by an aramaism οἱ αἰῶνες, the material universe, heb.

Blotty

[had a powercut halfway through writing this and was limited on time so is messy]

You say about the bible not prophesying about the “great apostasy” as you put it,yet it doesn't prophecy about an “inspired” counsel either- However according to (not limited to) the Catholic encyclopedia, encyclopedia britannica the trinity developed gradually over many centuries.

Heres just one:

“The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. Initially, both the requirements of monotheism inherited from the Hebrew Scriptures and the implications of the need to interpret the biblical teaching to Greco-Roman religions seemed to demand that the divine in Christ as the Word, or Logos, be interpreted as subordinate to the Supreme Being. An alternative solution was to interpret Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three modes of the self-disclosure of the one God but not as distinct within the being of God itself. The first tendency recognized the distinctness among the three, but at the cost of their equality and hence of their unity (subordinationism). The second came to terms with their unity, but at the cost of their distinctness as “persons” (modalism). The high point of these conflicts was the so-called Arian controversy in the early 4th century. In his interpretation of the idea of God, Arius sought to maintain a formal understanding of the oneness of God. In defense of that oneness, he was obliged to dispute the sameness of essence of the Son and the Holy Spirit with God the Father. It was not until later in the 4th century that the distinctness of the three and their unity were brought together in a single orthodox doctrine of one essence and three persons.

The Council of Nicaea in 325 stated the crucial formula for that doctrine in its confession that the Son is “of the same substance [homoousios] as the Father,” even though it said very little about the Holy Spirit. Over the next half century, St. Athanasius defended and refined the Nicene formula, and, by the end of the 4th century, under the leadership of St. Basil of Caesarea, St. Gregory of Nyssa, and St. Gregory of Nazianzus (the Cappadocian Fathers), the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since. It is accepted in all of the historic confessions of Christianity, even though the impact of the Enlightenment decreased its importance in some traditions.”

(https://www.britannica.com/topic/Trinity-Christianity)

These christians are apologists for the council yet say the same, that it wasn't infallible. So either they are lying if so what is there motive or you are. (you are more likely to be misleading as demonstrated before and later)

“The idea that a "great apostasy" could prevail over the true Church and that the "true teaching" could practically disappear for centuries, or even millennia, follows from the notion of the indefectibility of the Church” - yet Gods nation fell into a very long string of idolatry and the “truth” essentially disappeared - you can read that in isaiah

"You refer to various names, but you do not mark your source precisely, exactly what it claims, in what context, and how it is related to the present discussion." - I googled a lot of my paraphrases and they appear in some form 2) the context we are debating 3) that should be extremely self evident..

"even though I probably checked your sources much more than you checked mine anyway." - before this post you have cited very few, I check every one.

“I can judge to what extent the former rely on scholarly materials.” - Who are you to judge? If you google any scholar I have cited you will soon realise they are more than qualified to make comments.. And what/who gives you the authority to say what's scholarly and what's not? What qualifications do you possess? You're no authority - Colwell was caught “lying” to bolster Christs deity and he is still more credible than you

Since you can't google apparently here's a list, unlike yourself I try to make my posts as short as possible because that's what others have asked, if you can't figure out context to a discussion or how something relates…I pity you

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Barclay_(theologian)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Moffatt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_J._Goodspeed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_B._Wallace

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Kedar-Kopfstein

https://fosterheologicalreflections.blogspot.com/

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMtjmoHN6DIQOHEK2HCvEBQ

You can go back in our discussions and see where I cited these people and why- if you can write 50 paragraph essays of nothing more than fanciful interpretations you can do a simple look-back or google search for things I cite.

+ you rely on greek philosophy as pointed out by the sources I cite below and what a couple of users have said

“ On the one hand, it claims that he is 1. Lord and God” - Lord is applied in different senses to different people, if most bibles were honest about the divine name in the Hebrew scriptures this correlation would be nullified.

God can be applied in different senses. As has already been demonstrated.

“So what kind of talk is it when JWs claim that the New Testament does not know anything about a "dual nature"?” - because he gave up one for another (Phil 2:7) The bible says flesh is flesh and spirit is spirit, the 2 are never intertwined even the angels who took human form did not have both natures

“very attempt to render "harpagmos" here with "seizing" or a similar action and argue on this basis that Jesus "did not entertain the idea of usurpation to become equal with God", or as the NWT renders it: "did not even consider the idea of trying to be equal to God." is entirely fruitless.” -

Yet we have trinitarian Edgar J Goodspeed and James Moffat 2 of the very best NT scholars to ever live according to Robert Bowman JR (& others) rendering it similarly:

“ Though he possessed the nature of God, he did not grasp at equality with God,”

(https://studybible.info/Goodspeed/Philippians%202:6 )

Though he was divine by nature, he did not set store upon equality with God

(https://studybible.info/Moffatt/Philippians%202:6 )

I concede Rolf's expertise is in Hebrew not Greek, However that interpretation also runs the opposite to the previous clauses who express the exact opposite to the rendering you claim to be correct.

Phil 2: 1-4 is talking about humility, verse 5 expresses the attitude of Christ as an example - to claim then that verse 6 proves Jesus is God is contrary to not only the context but the very next thought in verse 7. The word rendered emptied conveys the idea of “(a) I empty, (b) I deprive of content, make unreal.” (https://biblehub.com/greek/2758.htm )

“so ontologically inferior to the Father regardless of his incarnation, why did he only have to "learn" obedience "in the days of his [being] flesh"?” - I can reflect this question straight back and say if Jesus has existed forever why did he need to learn it? Surely he would already have known it.

“The fact that John 7:42 is aorist (or can be understood as such) according to someone (who?)” - go look it up

“ but it is specifically stated based on the full text of John 1:1a ("In the beginning was...")” - those 2 in combination dont prove eternity either again, there can be 2 or 3 different perspectives referred as “in the beginning” Gen 1:1 is Moses point of view

“ Well, 'ἦν' here hardly means that David was "created" in Bethlehem (???)” - you like to stretch what I say way out don't you.. I never said that did I? Read my claim again.. It also doesn't mean David was in Bethlehem for all eternity or existed in Bethlehem for all eternity it means he was there and then left.. Same with John 1:1 just because he was there in “The beginning” does not omit him from “coming into existence” at some other point.

“look at Proverbs 8:23” - now you cite proverbs, does it refer to The Word or not? Make up your mind..

“where the divine wisdom is said to be everlasting ("I was set up from eternity (olam)” - you ignore the fact that Olam can just mean no specified beginning or end

“John should write "In the beginning the Word was created"” - not according to Proverbs 8:23,27,29 (more on that later)

On your imperfect tense claim I found the quote I want with a very simple google search might I add, you should try it sometime:

“Daniel B. Wallace treats of the Greek imperfect in pp 540-553 in his book Beyond the Basics and makes remarks about the imperfect in comparison to the aorist. What is pertinent to this question is that he states :

The imperfect is often used to describe an action or state that is in progress in past time from the viewpoint of the speaker.

I think that that statement sums up the use of John's verb in this context as John describes a state that existed at a time that was in the past according to his own point of view, as he wrote (or dictated) the words.”

(https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/43538/imperfect-indicative-active-in-john-11-4 )

And see:

"The beginning that John spoke of was not really the beginning of something new at a particular time. It was rather the time before anything that has come into existence began. The Bible does not teach a timeless state either before Creation or after the consummation of all things. This was a pagan Greek philosophical concept. Origen and Plato held it, as do some modern eastern religions and some uninformed Christians, but it is not a biblical teaching."

(Constables notes - https://netbible.org/bible/John+1)

I can say: the light bulb was in 1879 without ever specifying it was made that year or before that year (not proper english but you get the point)

Spanish as a language works SIMILAR to Greek “Era is the imperfect tense and Fue is the simple past tense. We use one or the other depending on what we want to convey in Spanish. The Imperfect is usually for when you want to say "he/she used to be..." or simply want to be more descriptive about the past.”

The NABRE has this note for John 1:1: "In the beginning: also the first words of the Old Testament (Gn 1:1). Was: this verb is used three times with different meanings in this verse: existence, relationship, and predication. The Word (Greek logos): this term combines God’s dynamic, creative word (Genesis), personified preexistent Wisdom as the instrument of God’s creative activity (Proverbs), and the ultimate intelligibility of reality (Hellenistic philosophy). With God: the Greek preposition here connotes communication with another. Was God: lack of a definite article with 'God' in Greek signifies predication rather than identification."

“The lack of distinction between lowercase and uppercase letters is important because according to this, anyone who read a New Testament manuscript in ancient times would never have thought that "THEOS" is understood in a different sense in the case of the Son than in the case of the Father.” - really what about Acts 28:6 with John 10:33? Both anarthorus accusative constructions yet all bibles render John 10 as God (definite) and Acts as “a god” ITS THE SAME CONSTRUCTION, CHOOSE! It's either indefinite in both or definite NOT BOTH.

“Luke does not claim in Acts 28:6 that Paul was actually "a god"” - you really muck up my words don't you, can you actually quote what I said? I didn't say that..

“The teaching of the Catholic Church about the Trinity has never changed, since the dogma cannot be changed.” - see the encyclopaedia quote above, google “changes to the trinity doctrine”

I’ll ignore the Isaiah quotes as you quote them outside of their context as established in my previous post, which you fail to explain away, why the sentence 2 lines later doesn't matter to the context of the particular line you're citing. Ironically you quote Proverbs 8:23 as a reference to Logos’ eternity, yet fail to also mention proverbs 8:30 where the active agent is mentioned (compare: John 1:3)

Job 9:8 - just compare the other similar statements made by countless others in the following:1 Kings 6:2; 6:14; 7:1; 8:27; 9:10; 15:23; 22:39; 2 Chron. 26:9; Ezra 5:11, etc.

“since ἔκτισε of the LXX still not the same as ποιηθέντα” - dictionary evidence? (same for: theotes and theitotes )

“Secondly, the Wisdom of Proverb 8:22 is not the Logos himself, it does not identify and equate with the Logos per se” - ok so you can't use proverbs to establish his eternity either then.

“so this could not be used to support a doctrine anyway”

The same person says:

“look at Proverbs 8:23. It explains where the divine wisdom is said to be everlasting ("I was set up from eternity (olam), and of old before the earth was made."); and it explains the connection in which the Word - God therefore eternal”

Hypocrite.. Make up your mind.

“1 Thessalonians 4:16 does not at all identify the voice of Jesus with the voice of the archangel, it only reveals that the coming of Jesus will be accompanied by the word of an archangel” W.E Vines dictionary states the opposite:

“ In 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the meaning seems to be that the voice of the Lord Jesus will be of the character of an "archangelic" shout.”

(https://studybible.info/vines/Archangel )

Should look up all cases of this idiom and tell Vines and Edgar how many times it means accompanied by a voice, rather than the voice of the person mentioned

“Archangel Michael is just an angel, a "ministering spirit"” - but he is not just an angel is he? He is “the great angel”

“Since Michael is not literally a "chief prince", but an archangel, the fact that he is "one of the chief princes" (Dan 10:13, LXX: “the great angel”) means that he is one of the archangels” - plural is sometimes used for things in the singular. and the bible never uses the plural.

Hebrews 2:5 proves nothing, the thing that is meant is “every day” angels the one called “son of God” would be an exception.

On Hebews 1:2

NET Bible Footnote 6 (Hebrews 1:2):

“the ages.” The temporal (ages) came to be used of the spatial (what exists in those time periods). See Heb 11:3 for the same usage.

see the discussion on Hebrews 1:2 in Paul Ellingworth's Hebrews commentary. He insists that the word in this context refers to "the totality of the universe" and that the plural form of the word here is indistinguishable in meaning from its singular form. So, he's arguing that the sense in Heb. 1:2 is more spatial than temporal. See LSJ and BDAG.

On Jesus being Wisdom - your very own sources would disagree:

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5172429031211008/interesting-observation-some-bibles#/6246256653893632

https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/5172429031211008/interesting-observation-some-bibles#/6254057488908288

Archangel

and see here: https://archive.org/details/WilliamMillerEvidenceFromScriptureAndHistoryOfTheSecondComingOf/page/n41/mode/1up

66

"outside of time" argument

by Blotty in

this is going to be very brief but a user recently tried to argue an argument that has already been refuted many times - the logic is somewhat sound but falls apart when the definition to the word used it looked and its usages in the bible.the word in question is "aionas" found in the scripture in question hebrews 1:2 .

(https://biblehub.com/hebrews/1-2.htm#lexicon)for starters look at the biblehub translations - do any of them state "outside of time" or that time was "created" in this moment - no because this seems to be heavily inspired by greek philosophy rather than the bible itself.note: i am not saying this word does not mean eternity or anything of the sort, i am saying this scripture some of the claims i dispute and can easily disprove, hence the argument is laughable.. bill mounce defines the word as:pr.

a period of time of significant character; life; an era; an age: hence, a state of things marking an age or era; the present order of nature; the natural condition of man, the world; ὁ αἰών, illimitable duration, eternity; as also, οἱ αἰῶνες, ὁ αἰῶν τῶν αἰώνων, οἱ αἰῶνες τῶν αἰώνων; by an aramaism οἱ αἰῶνες, the material universe, heb.

Blotty

On the Nicene creed being infallible

"Some evangelical and other Christians consider the Nicene Creed helpful and to a certain extent authoritative, but not infallibly"

"You just listed a bunch of names here, but without specifying when, where, and in what context they stated what, it's vague and imprecise." - why dont you go and look it up? why do I have to do all the work? its not hard..

"rather than drawing conclusions from the evidence. For example, they quote the dictionary form of a certain word from a dictionary (which lists up to 8-10 different meanings), highlight the one they like in bold and underline, and then carry it around like a victory wreath saying "DO YOU SEE?" - yet you do almost exactly the same... trinitarian like to dispute the meanings to words that JWs give them - saying it cant mean that, well turns out it can.

"the WTS apologist sites you also recommend" - there one I would consider an apologist site, I doubt you read half the information on it - Where is the 2 nature doctrine explicitly said in scripture?

"I highly doubt that any serious New Testament Greek linguist would ever claim that there is an aorist in John 1:1a ("en archē ēn ho Logos")" - I never stated that a scholar said there was an aorist... I said that a scholar said we should understand it as aorist. just like in John 7:42 - David is not still in Bethlehem when this was written, nor was he in bethlehem for eternity before that.

“. . .David was. . .”

"he cannot even judge to what extent a study is an accepted consensus or not." - a proffesor I know personally would disagree, a wikipedia article on people who are self taught would also disagree..

"yet the Watchtower has been bragging about his name for decades" - cite source, and yeah trinitarians got proven wrong lol

"Accordingly, tinkering with initial letters is not only linguistically unfounded" -this is rubbish and BS, Mom and mom mean 2 different things lets go through this basic english idiom together shall we?

"Proper nouns refer to a specific person, place, or thing and are always capitalized. Common nouns refer to a general concept or thing and are only capitalized at the beginning of a sentence."

Further:

"When terms denoting family relationships are used as proper nouns (as names), they are capitalized. However, when the terms are used as common nouns (not as names), they're not capitalized."

so when I refer to my Mum I capitilize the word

when I refer to mum, like talking to a child I write it in the lowercase

So based on:

John 8:39

"Our Father is Abraham"

"We have one Father God"

Is Abraham God? if not why not?

How many bibles tinker with the capitalisation here?

Lets see: NIV, ESV, KJV - must I go on?

Lets look at a (rough) paralel to John 1:1 in Acts 28:6

is Paul a false god, an idol - nope its teh sense in which the word is used

even Harner disagreed with the definite "God" rendering (though "a god" he also disliked) but English idoim requires an indefinite article alot of the time for qualiative force

"most of their specific teachings (two-class salvation regime, etc.) were never professed by anyone before" - Do I need to list the changes the trinity has gone through?

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/trinity/trinity-history.html

Isnt it interesting that Athanasius was an Egyption Who were well known to believe in triads of gods

GGBTB (Daniel Wallace) on the imperfect "was"

says: [paraphrasing] "the imperfect is often reflecting the writers point of view (The action started in the past without reflecting time period)"

even in combination with "the beginning" it still doesnt work as already pointed out

"The distinction between imperfect and aorist in the above examples can be seen not so much in terms of perfectivity vs. imperfectivity, as in terms of telicity vs. atelicity.[66] The aorist ἐδειπνήσαμεν (edeipnḗsamen) would mean "we finished dinner" and would be a telic verb, implying that the action was carried through to its end, whereas the imperfect ἐδειπνοῦμεν (edeipnoûmen) would mean "we began eating dinner" and would be atelic, implying that the action was started but not necessarily completed. Similarly the aorist ἔπεισα (épeisa) means "I successfully persuaded", whereas the imperfect ἔπειθον (épeithon) means "I urged" or "I attempted to persuade":[67][68]"

https://pressbooks.pub/ancientgreek/chapter/28/

https://www.blueletterbible.org/resources/grammars/greek/simplified-greek/greek-verbs-pt1.cfm

(compare Acts 28:6)

"According to them, God had no people for almost 1900 years then" - again cite your source, according to you we cant translate words with capitals and lowercase letters to distubguish senses, according to you a phrase similar to your just 2 lines later doesnt matter, according to you aianos means "time" (when dictionarys dont even give your definition for the word, and if they do cite them)

"In Isaiah 44:24, the most important part is not "Who was with me?"," - why does this not matter? its a direct parralel to your statement and the other scriptures I cited have humans saying "i, alone did [activity]" (paraphrase)

(are you sure its Examining the trinity trying to prove something? Theres more holes in your arguments than in swiss cheese)

By your very same logic God was lieing here aswell, its in the same verse, just 2 lines later..

""the worlds", "the eras", "the ages", etc. By definition, it also includes the time, the temporality, which is also a created reality. The Council of Nicaea asserts (in Greek) that the Son begot from the Father before all αἰώνs (plural)" -

(from my original post)

"Here τοὺς αἰῶνας is equivalent to "the worlds," as in the A.V. For though the primary meaning of αἰών has reference to time - limited in periods, or unlimited in eternity - it is used to denote also the whole system of things called into being by the Creator in time and through which alone we are able to conceive time. "

"Ἁιών transliterated eon, is a period of time of longer or shorter duration, having a beginning and an end, and complete in itself."

"It is sometimes translated world; world representing a period or a series of periods of time. See Matthew 12:32; Matthew 13:40, Matthew 13:49; Luke 1:70; 1 Corinthians 1:20; 1 Corinthians 2:6; Ephesians 1:21. Similarly οἱ αἰῶνες the worlds, the universe, the aggregate of the ages or periods, and their contents which are included in the duration of the world. 1 Corinthians 2:7; 1 Corinthians 10:11; Hebrews 1:2; Hebrews 9:26; Hebrews 11:3."

"The word always carries the notion of time, and not of eternity. It always means a period of time. Otherwise it would be impossible to account for the plural, or for such qualifying expressions as this age, or the age to come. It does not mean something endless or everlasting. To deduce that meaning from its relation to ἀεί is absurd; for, apart from the fact that the meaning of a word is not definitely fixed by its derivation, ἀεί does not signify endless duration. When the writer of the Pastoral Epistles quotes the saying that the Cretans are always (ἀεί) liars (Titus 1:12), he surely does not mean that the Cretans will go on lying to all eternity. See also Acts 7:51; 2 Corinthians 4:11; 2 Corinthians 6:10; Hebrews 3:10; 1 Peter 3:15. Ἁεί means habitually or continually within the limit of the subject's life. In our colloquial dialect everlastingly is used in the same way. "The boy is everlastingly tormenting me to buy him a drum.""

"The adjective αἰώνιος in like manner carries the idea of time. Neither the noun nor the adjective, in themselves, carry the sense of endless or everlasting. They may acquire that sense by their connotation, as, on the other hand, ἀΐ̀διος, which means everlasting, has its meaning limited to a given point of time in Jde 1:6."

your claim about teh double accusative is wrong also as aalot of the time we ahve a double accusative in creation clauses (see Net Bible footnote for Prov 8:22)

"The dual nature of Jesus " - proof in the bible?

"1 Thessalonians 4:16 speak generally, without an article, "en phōnē archangelou" (with voice of (an) archangel), and does not call Jesus' voice the voice of the archangel at all." - a genitive can be definite even without the article.. Dan 10:13 on Biblehub go look it up, youll soon see why it says that.

"1) The Resurrection: ONLY ONE VOICE CAN COMMAND THE DEAD TO RISE

a) There is only ONE VOICE that can raise the dead in the coming

resurrection. This authority has been given to the Christ by

his Father. (John 5:25-28).

b) It is the VOICE of an ARCHANGEL that raises the dead during

the unique SINGULAR act of the resurrection at the time of

the end. (1Th 4:16; cf Da 12:2 ).

c) Since the archangel shares the unique characteristic that only

Christ posesses, the authority to raise the dead with his voice,

Christ is an archangel.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words -- Topic:

Archangel says regarding the character of the Lord Jesus' voice

"In 1 Thess. 4:16 the meaning seems to be that the voice of the

Lord Jesus will be of the character of an 'archangelic' shout."

(https://studybible.info/vines/Archangel)

1Th 4:16 NWT

"because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a

commanding call, with an archangel's voice and with God's

trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will

rise first."

Vines assigns the voice of Jesus with the character of

the archangel, because the grammar demands it.

Thayers calls the voice that raises the dead at John 5:28 "the

Resurrection-Cry" and "Christ's voice that raises the dead" at

1Th 4:16 as "an awakening shout". The Greek for 'with an archangel's voice'

is literally 'EN FWNHi ARXAGGELOU', in the oblique dative case.

In all other occurences of this idiom in the Greek New Testament it

describes the voice of the subject in the clause."

(Edgar Foster - https://fosterheologicalreflections.blogspot.com/2012/01/michael-archangel-as-christ.html )
(Ph.D. in Theology and Religious Studies - you should be careful before you call people an apologist, for a ph.d in both of these some Greek is required, He has studied German, Latin and Greek and I believe teaches at a university)

yeah he is on of "the cheif princes" not archangels

"once it claims that even they were created by the Son." - read original post.. stop babbling and actaully challange what I have written in the original post

I notice when I ask for sources you fail to provide to back up your claims,

66

"outside of time" argument

by Blotty in

this is going to be very brief but a user recently tried to argue an argument that has already been refuted many times - the logic is somewhat sound but falls apart when the definition to the word used it looked and its usages in the bible.the word in question is "aionas" found in the scripture in question hebrews 1:2 .

(https://biblehub.com/hebrews/1-2.htm#lexicon)for starters look at the biblehub translations - do any of them state "outside of time" or that time was "created" in this moment - no because this seems to be heavily inspired by greek philosophy rather than the bible itself.note: i am not saying this word does not mean eternity or anything of the sort, i am saying this scripture some of the claims i dispute and can easily disprove, hence the argument is laughable.. bill mounce defines the word as:pr.

a period of time of significant character; life; an era; an age: hence, a state of things marking an age or era; the present order of nature; the natural condition of man, the world; ὁ αἰών, illimitable duration, eternity; as also, οἱ αἰῶνες, ὁ αἰῶν τῶν αἰώνων, οἱ αἰῶνες τῶν αἰώνων; by an aramaism οἱ αἰῶνες, the material universe, heb.

Blotty

"they are not scholars, nor linguists, but WTS apologists" -

listing the ones that I have cited to you so far (in total, not in just this conversation):

Barclay, Robertson, Goodspeed, Moffat & Wallace are not apologists but well respected scholars (Wallace even has a specific qualification in koine Greek)

Greg stafford is not a WT apologist at all, but has good knowledge in Hebrew and Greek (has taken a class in both)

Benjamin Kedar kopfstein is a Hebrew proffesor at a university (has qualifications in Hebrew and has made favorable comments on the NWT OT, which he never made a statement about Prov, infact saying the opposite to you)

Beduhn (Who will be cited later) may not have specific qualifications in Greek, but teaches it in a university as his book says and is a historian

Edgar Foster is a scholar, and has qualifications (and a JW) check for yourself

Rolf (not yet cited) is a Hebrew prof

Examining the trinity (cites numerous scholars) in context - check for yourself (WT has never cited a scholar out of context as such, but has been misleading in alot of cases yes, granted)

Lesriv spencer: see above ^ (I dont know his qualifications)

not listing all the commentaries on Biblehub, non are JW, pretty sure some have qualifications though, you can look if interested, I have before but am not gonna do it again rn

and by saying what you said you disrespect ones who are self taught, like myself who are quite well versed in the languages (Greek is more my expertise, I personally find Hebrew difficult in some areas)

What are your qualifications? (with proof)

What were the nicene creeds qualifications?

Ill admit I have none, Im currently taking a class in koine Greek and for the rest am self taught..

Ill deal with this first argument tmr (probably, have other issues to attend, rather than idoits on teh internet), Its 11pm (Where I am) as Im writing this (last thing I wrote) and I have an early start

"even though in the time of the apostles there was no distinction between lowercase and uppercase letters" - the distinction in letters to distuinguish the sense in which the word is used. I do it commonly in my own writings tho not proper english when I refer to my actaul mother I capitlise the word but when I mean the catergory or classification I use lowercase - not misleading, common english idiom

"the burden of proof is on you, thus, being founded only in 1879" -

yet you call JWs arians... who existed long before 1879? nice way to avoidan easy scriptural reference which takes only 2 minutes

"Consequently, according to the Scriptures, only a Church that has continuously and visibly existed since the time of the apostles, with historical continuity, can be true." - yet what you claim wasnt fully established till atleast the 3rd (maybe 4th)

" If you claim that this strict terminological difference means nothing" - I dont actaully, teh significant difference is I (and Witnesses) claim that Jesus was the ONLY thing created directly by YHWH and teh rest was done via agency

"(=by/through Him) in John 1:3, but also with "en" (=in Him) in Colossians 1:16" - so agency & the "in him" is easily explained but I will get to that later

" The New Testament verses used by Jehovah's Witnesses to allegedly predict the alleged "great apostasy" do not claim that those specific false teachers will completely take over the Church to the extent that they will completely erase the "original" teaching without anyone noticing" - think you stretch what they have claimed a little too far.. can you cite your sources for this claim. (with surrounding context, Im asking for a long post now and link)

"if the Holy Scriptures say "THEOS" without the article ("HO", "the"), it actually means only a demigod, and only the form provided with the article ("HO THEOS") means full deity. " - they never claimed such a thing - you misunderstand what you quote, its a flexible principle - there are many places in teh bible where "theos" (or the other cases) do not have the article but have some other idication that it is definite including but not limited to, dative, genitive, prepositional or demonstrative (constructions) - the sense of the word should also be considered as in "Father" in John 8

" But there is no temporality, temporal succession in God...it is impossible that there was a time when he did not possess, lacked something." - precisicly my point, the very verb implies this meaning, therefore if you are 100% honest and this symbollically refers to the son - then there was a time he didnt exist or atleast wasnt with God.

"The context does not flatten the meaning of what Isaiah 44:24 states" - thats what you would like to think- in reality it does as the son and the angels are not in the context of the discussion, yet those scriptures I cited use a similar vein.

Just 2 lines down in Isaiah 44:24

“Who was with me?”

A very similar statement to the one you claim "the context does not flatten the statement" - well actually yes it does.. it restricts it to the subjects and God, the angels and the son are not in "sight"

Who was with God? The angels

Hebrews 3:4 so God made the Godhead?

" Association and typology is not identification" - Jesus identifies himself as the wisdom of God - you cant cherry pick outside texts from the bible and only use bits of them, you either believe Jesus is Wisdom in Proverbs 8 or you dont. no one else on here does.

I understand you might consider some cherry picking... however they omit whats not important, however you ask any to address those bits Im sure they would be more than happy too.

Hebrews 1:10 is slightly different, if it identifies Jesus as YHWH then it also identifies him as Solomon

"No one said that they invented it" - Trevor R Allin & others claimed this exact thing.. so you lie

"while "He caused/made me to be the beginning/principle" is grammatically more plausible with the double accusative construction." - really? check Biblehub and commentaries, alot would disagree.

"God should not be understood with concepts taken from the created world and with logic" - yet your using using logic... "by logic of this" in the previous paragraph

" I know this WTS argument in connection with John 10:30-36" - In John I say human judges were called gods... Im talking about other texts which I never specified - so you jump to conlcusions

"In what sense namely then?" - he was a divine being, they werent as plainly stated in other places in scripture..

"but the Council of Nicaea was." - really? not sure about that one, even the WTS doesnt claim to be infallable, the bible warns against this very behaviour.

"This term "system of things" occurs exclusively in the terminology of the Watchtower" - check Biblehub... your sadly mistaken

"so why do you claim that you are not a member of the JW denomination?" - covering almost every possible (most common) rendering of the word, as you yourself do...

""how do you accept the statement of the Nicene Creed that Son "was begotten from the Father, before all αἰώνs"? - like the commentaries on Bible hub say... go read (all of) them (all disagree with the "time" argument)

"Yet where does the Scripture call Jesus an archangel? The term "other" that I highlighted in bold is not in Hebrews 1" -

for

0.1) I refer you to my previous answer for Hebrews 1:5

1) The word other doesnt occur because an archangel is not an angel per-say, but a higher class of angels

2) allos is often ommitted where we would add "other"

Romans 9:5 is a highly debated text and the NET would actaully disagree, the immediate person referenced is not always the direct antecedent. (so would many others + many texts in the bible)

you omit part of Col 2:9 - selective quoting, "God was pleased"

"The difference between Jesus and Michael... Jude's letter establishes the truth that Satan has greater authority than Michael. The apostle Jude writes that Michael "did not dare" to bring condemnation/judgment on Satan ..., but Jesus pronounced a clear judgment on him..." (ellipsis added for sake of simplicity) - one plain statement, at one point Jesus didnt have authority - at another he did. Thers your answer, you can find teh rest yourself ;)

yet based on trinitarian logic, the similaritys between Jesus and Michel are huge - So I would say they are the same being - I can list the parralels, I can use your logic against you aswell.

1 thess 4:16 - should look up the idiom used in this scripture

"God is infinitely perfect. But what changes either gains or loses perfection; therefore, it is not the most perfect" - are you sure? I dont think thats 100% correct

81

Careful what you wish for! Regarding Jehovah in the New Testament

by pizzahut2023 in

ok i'll bite.. let's say for a moment that jehovah's witnesses are right, and that the nt autographs (the originals) contained the tetragrammaton.let's say that the nt writers always wrote "jehovah" in greek (iexoba, as the witnesses spell it currently) when they quoted the hebrew scriptures, whether they quoted from the hebrew version or the septuagint, and jehovah's name appeared on the quote.

let's say that the original septuagint always had iexoba whenever they were referring to jehovah.then we have that the original septuagint said in psalms 101:26-28 the following:"at the beginning it was you, o jehovah, who founded the earth, and the heavens are works of your hands.

they will perish, but you will endure, and they will all become old like a garment.

Blotty

"it can only be understood in terms of his divine nature." - many would disagree... including the NET - you jump to massive conclusions based on not much evidence.. next you'll tell me Olam in Hebrew means eternity... (it doesn't, according to many dictionaries) you prove my point with John 8:58 that's exactly how Jesus can be Davids Lord & also he is the seed of David

"eternal logos" - I have a theory on that - Humans were created at a point in time right but are later said to live for eternity. eternity can work in 2 different directions past and future. I wonder if ancient Christian writers meant eternity in the future, not past.

John 20:28 is a fun one in light of David being addressed in the same way.

"Mary may be called the God-bearer, "theotokos"" - if you think Mary is the mother of God, where does this word appear in the bible? it doesn't

"Scholasticism was a medieval school of philosophy that employed a critical organic method of philosophical analysis predicated upon the Aristotelian 10 Categories" - lol, literally using a philosophical argument, ok dude

its funny those who go on about an incarnation tend to refer to scriptures but forget the bible says they are 2 seperate things "Divine" and "fleshly" - Jesus was a sinless Human... which is by definition a divine attribute (based on Bible events)

81

Careful what you wish for! Regarding Jehovah in the New Testament

by pizzahut2023 in

ok i'll bite.. let's say for a moment that jehovah's witnesses are right, and that the nt autographs (the originals) contained the tetragrammaton.let's say that the nt writers always wrote "jehovah" in greek (iexoba, as the witnesses spell it currently) when they quoted the hebrew scriptures, whether they quoted from the hebrew version or the septuagint, and jehovah's name appeared on the quote.

let's say that the original septuagint always had iexoba whenever they were referring to jehovah.then we have that the original septuagint said in psalms 101:26-28 the following:"at the beginning it was you, o jehovah, who founded the earth, and the heavens are works of your hands.

they will perish, but you will endure, and they will all become old like a garment.

Blotty

Greg Stafford and other scholars would have a blast in here - There are many Hebrew words that have an "H" added or translated with a "J" even though there is no "J" in Hebrew

again I reiterate Wonderments challenge (echoed from another user)

The Letter "H":

Lets just look at the Greek (masculine) definite article "ὁ" according to: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BF

The article is an omicron, the 15th letter in the Greek alphabet corresponding the the English "o" (cap: O)
We don't say "O theos" we say "ho theos" and when written most interlinear Iv seen translate this as "ho" though in Greek its just an "O" (Omicron, modifyed)

Ill do a Hebrew example if I have too, But your complaint is not only unfounded but also inherently wrong and biased due to only picking on a single word. When there are other words who according to you adding "h" is unfounded - Go tell that to scholars from the last 3 decades and see how far you get (hint: you will get destroyed)

as to Psalm 110:1,

"Lord according to his divine nature" are you sure? Id take a closer look if I was you - lets take a look at a footnote from the NET bible shall we? (https://netbible.org/bible/Acts+2 - Footnote: 78 ):

"Peter’s point is that the Lord on whom one calls for salvation is Jesus because he is the one mediating God’s blessing of the Spirit as a sign of the presence of salvation and the last days."

The NET Bible has no issue with regarding Jesus as God, however here they neither point to the "incarnation" nor "Godhood" - infact here apparently "God" is someone else.
So David calls him Lord for this reason - but also because he pre-existed David.

also note: Rev 22:16

66

"outside of time" argument

by Blotty in

this is going to be very brief but a user recently tried to argue an argument that has already been refuted many times - the logic is somewhat sound but falls apart when the definition to the word used it looked and its usages in the bible.the word in question is "aionas" found in the scripture in question hebrews 1:2 .

(https://biblehub.com/hebrews/1-2.htm#lexicon)for starters look at the biblehub translations - do any of them state "outside of time" or that time was "created" in this moment - no because this seems to be heavily inspired by greek philosophy rather than the bible itself.note: i am not saying this word does not mean eternity or anything of the sort, i am saying this scripture some of the claims i dispute and can easily disprove, hence the argument is laughable.. bill mounce defines the word as:pr.

a period of time of significant character; life; an era; an age: hence, a state of things marking an age or era; the present order of nature; the natural condition of man, the world; ὁ αἰών, illimitable duration, eternity; as also, οἱ αἰῶνες, ὁ αἰῶν τῶν αἰώνων, οἱ αἰῶνες τῶν αἰώνων; by an aramaism οἱ αἰῶνες, the material universe, heb.

Blotty

"the Son is begotten from the Father before all aions, not made" - meaning "the world" "the system of things" as in not time itself (see original post)

"the early Christian sources even before the Nicene Creed do not teach anything else" - ofcourse, the trinity doctrine was established roughly in the third century, it existed before hand, pretty sure it can traced to atleast teh second century

" the Nicene Creed uses only New Testament terminology" - course it does

about:

(Hebrews 1:5)

“. . .For example, to which one of the angels did God ever say: “You are my son; today I have become your father”? And again: “I will become his father, and he will become my son”?”

This does not make Jesus exempt please see:

Hebrews 1:5, 13

For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my son! Today I have fathered you”? And in another place he says, “I will be his father and he will be my son.” …

But to which of the angels has he ever said, “Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool for your feet”?

Jesus being the archangel would put him in an elevated class over the other angels that appeared after him. Thus, there is no conflict. Even if one views the archangel as a rank within the angels, it would still separate him from the angels as he is superior in so many ways as described in Hebrews 1:2-3.

(https://jimspace3000.blogspot.com/search?q=Hebrews+1%3A5)

also this was said to Jesus when he was a man, not an angel (or archangel) there are many more flaws in your argument but those are the main ones

https://searchforbibletruths.blogspot.com/2010/07/does-hebrews-chapter-1-show-that-jesus.html

about: "The great apostacy"

Other prophecys have different time periods in the bible and is marked out as "representing" rather than the actaul time - so it doesnt discount it

"outside of time" argument

by Blotty in

this is going to be very brief but a user recently tried to argue an argument that has already been refuted many times - the logic is somewhat sound but falls apart when the definition to the word used it looked and its usages in the bible.the word in question is "aionas" found in the scripture in question hebrews 1:2 .

(https://biblehub.com/hebrews/1-2.htm#lexicon)for starters look at the biblehub translations - do any of them state "outside of time" or that time was "created" in this moment - no because this seems to be heavily inspired by greek philosophy rather than the bible itself.note: i am not saying this word does not mean eternity or anything of the sort, i am saying this scripture some of the claims i dispute and can easily disprove, hence the argument is laughable.. bill mounce defines the word as:pr.

a period of time of significant character; life; an era; an age: hence, a state of things marking an age or era; the present order of nature; the natural condition of man, the world; ὁ αἰών, illimitable duration, eternity; as also, οἱ αἰῶνες, ὁ αἰῶν τῶν αἰώνων, οἱ αἰῶνες τῶν αἰώνων; by an aramaism οἱ αἰῶνες, the material universe, heb.

Blotty

"my goal was not to upset you or to attack you personally" you certainly imply it...

your thoughts are flawed.

for instance Jesus isnt said to be created or "come into being" so he never was shall I list the instances of things that arent stated in the bible?

1. "it's not aorist" - ask Barclay (pretty sure it was Barclay), multiple scholars have said we should understand it as aorist rather than "eternity"

see also Edgar Foster & Daniel Wallace's - Greek grammar beyond the basics

"which is used to show continuous action in the past" - only when past time implications are mixed with a present tense verb. The combination of "beginning" and "was" doesnt always equate to "eternity", actaully never does..

same combo is used of Satan, has he been sinning for eternity - consistancy..

4. "God the Father is not needed to be called "firstborn"" - didnt say God the father I said God..

5. the language you are using - yes I am being vague Im seeing if you can be 100% honest for a change

7. I also said DM it to me... Where are humans, angels called "creatures"... where are angels said to be created? they never were - there are cases where "all" (panta) means "some" or "most" alot of the time the exception is assumed to be known by the readers based on common sense

"The genitive does not at all mean that he is included" - again show me an instance where this is not the case...

"any more than "Lord of worlds" means that the Lord is also a world himself, or "the king of the country" means that the king is also a country himself. " - no but they are part of the "world" they are king of and the king is part of the country he is king over - however king and lord are superior titles so they are above what they are connected too.

Firstborn is understood as equal or part of the same group. anything firstborn is generally understood to have come into being - else again it would be used of God.

Christ is a highly exalted divine being - yes, but never said to be God in the NT

(see Barclay)

see Greg stafford, Edgar Foster etc

"The Son is eternally begotten, not made or created" - you will have to prove that with scriptural references... monogenes in Greek means of sole descent (I know the word is controversial)

being eternally begotten makes no sense (by definition in general) and is nowhere stated in the bible - the only thing you have to go on is your flawed argument for "beginning" and "was"

Ever consider that "in the beginning" could be referencing 2 different events "In the beginning"? for example I could write:

On June 3rd 2012 I was at school (no mention of me being born, travelling to school, etc)

OR

On June 3rd 2012 I was making a model of a human skeleton (Where am I making this model? based on my previous statement it would have been at school)

Get the point? Bible writers do this often. same time frame slightly different events told in a different order.

"Why should anyone else than the Son called the way the Son is called?" - its the lexical meaning to the word

"and not made of the Father" - huh?

"Lol, here Isaac is not only-begotten Son of God, but of Abraham." - not my point, far from it infact..

"You should just answer the rhetorical question YHWH God asks in Isaiah 44:24" - ok I will

Job 38:5-8 The angels were with YHWH

now to the actaul context of Isaiah (you isolate that scripture from its immediate context)

less than 10 verses before verse 24 it says: (rough verse guidelines)

44:1- 10 God issues a challenge to false Gods of the nations

11- 19 man made idols "taunted"

24 - 28 how to get back on the right path.

So in some sense this is strictly between God and the man made idols, it does not exclude anyone from being with God at all as Job 38:7 proves outright.

compare: 1 Kings 6:2; 6:14; 7:1; 8:27; 9:10; 15:23; 22:39; 2 Chron. 26:9; Ezra 5:11 - where similar statements are made.

"These statements are explicit and clear" - so are others which you ignore, and they limit God to just the Father - else they could have written the others aswell, 1 time - thats it. Are mint and rue herbs? going by your logic combined with Lukes writings they are not.

" The Bible clearly states that only God can and does create, and does not use secondary agents, co-creator angels, etc. for this" - it says he creates alone it never says the rest though, and ironically the preposition "dia" most of the time means agency in the NT, and in pauls mind Wisdom was assosiated with Christ - the nicene councel never denied this. This isnt an invention by the Watchtower either as other ancient texts prove.

"Which council said that Proverb 8 is literally about the Son?" - never said it was literally about the son... I said symbollically its different - Wisdom is also the only "thing" to use "I"

"Even Jewish translators (Philo of Alexandria, Aquila, Theodotion, Symmachus) preferred to translate the verb in Proverbs 8:22 as ἐκτήσατο, meaning "acquired" or "possessed." " - should be noted all the meanings to the word imply "something that was not possesed before" or in other words a new thing to the subject.

"while "begotten" suggests an eternal relationship, with no beginning" - it really doesnt... "born" and "begotten" are used as parralels and basically mean the same, only slight variations - The father even says "Today" I have begotten you - again as you like to claim for us non-trinitarians a simple statement of eternal begetting would not go a miss.

"sharing the same divine essence with the Father." - but humans also share the divine nature with them? are they then God? what about angels? (Who are literally called gods)

Athanasius was well known to state things that contridict the bible - you can research that yourself, infact he was sometimes downright dishonest..

should also look up teh history of that councel..

" the natural son originates from the father by generation." - what does generation mean? again the word implies some sort of beginning. a time either not God or not in existance

" God created the time for man when He separated the days from each other " - dont think so, not according to other bible commentators and scholars..

you also isolate alot of the other texts from their context and twist them to say what you want them to say (aside from 1 or 2)

"f time itself began with the singularity event, it stands to reason that the creator of both time and space would have to be outside of—and unbound by—not only space, but also time." - 1.bible often uses hyberbole and exagerates deeply 2. pretty sure the big bang happened in time... specifically as you say

14 billion years ago

66

"outside of time" argument

by Blotty in

this is going to be very brief but a user recently tried to argue an argument that has already been refuted many times - the logic is somewhat sound but falls apart when the definition to the word used it looked and its usages in the bible.the word in question is "aionas" found in the scripture in question hebrews 1:2 .

(https://biblehub.com/hebrews/1-2.htm#lexicon)for starters look at the biblehub translations - do any of them state "outside of time" or that time was "created" in this moment - no because this seems to be heavily inspired by greek philosophy rather than the bible itself.note: i am not saying this word does not mean eternity or anything of the sort, i am saying this scripture some of the claims i dispute and can easily disprove, hence the argument is laughable.. bill mounce defines the word as:pr.

a period of time of significant character; life; an era; an age: hence, a state of things marking an age or era; the present order of nature; the natural condition of man, the world; ὁ αἰών, illimitable duration, eternity; as also, οἱ αἰῶνες, ὁ αἰῶν τῶν αἰώνων, οἱ αἰῶνες τῶν αἰώνων; by an aramaism οἱ αἰῶνες, the material universe, heb.

Blotty

"it wouldn't hurt to prove first whether it is possible for the whole Church to fall into "great apostasy" and that "true Christianity" is supposed to be restored " - bible prophesy's this... I omit the rest because its a longshot.. Israel fell into a string of idolotry.. not hard to believe Catholics would.. now whos the one ignoring the bible.

ancient writers statements sound like the trinity because its what the council used as a baseline for the arguments.

"God could not have had a [masterworker]" - holy crap you are really really slow.. shall I list the parallels for the 14th time? shall I list the trinitarian bibles that CR prov with Heb, Col & John? shall I point out no one even in the council said that proverbs wasnt symbolic of Christ

lol the irony o taking things out of context... you do it all the time, in almost every sentence.

you do know everlasting can just mean no strict beginning or end point in Hebrew and Greek right? doesn't mean they dont exist in alot of cases (with few exceptions)

like to see you prove the outside of time argument based on what a heavily biased trinitarian website says - and your the one making the argument, not anyone else.

66

"outside of time" argument

by Blotty in

this is going to be very brief but a user recently tried to argue an argument that has already been refuted many times - the logic is somewhat sound but falls apart when the definition to the word used it looked and its usages in the bible.the word in question is "aionas" found in the scripture in question hebrews 1:2 .

(https://biblehub.com/hebrews/1-2.htm#lexicon)for starters look at the biblehub translations - do any of them state "outside of time" or that time was "created" in this moment - no because this seems to be heavily inspired by greek philosophy rather than the bible itself.note: i am not saying this word does not mean eternity or anything of the sort, i am saying this scripture some of the claims i dispute and can easily disprove, hence the argument is laughable.. bill mounce defines the word as:pr.

a period of time of significant character; life; an era; an age: hence, a state of things marking an age or era; the present order of nature; the natural condition of man, the world; ὁ αἰών, illimitable duration, eternity; as also, οἱ αἰῶνες, ὁ αἰῶν τῶν αἰώνων, οἱ αἰῶνες τῶν αἰώνων; by an aramaism οἱ αἰῶνες, the material universe, heb.

Blotty

1. Im not ADHD - atleast I have the decency to object to actual argument instead of being a child and talking around the issue - you don't address the real issue, I have already said why First-created is never applied to Jesus (try Greg Stafford aswell, or Edgar Foster). How many people on here have asked to make your posts shorter... I can cite atleast 5.
you have no respect for others opinions and objective evidence so in turn I have no respect for yours and dont have time to read your posts.. you say Im being disrespectful by pasting a bunch of links - but you are being no better when others (not myself) ask for shorter posts and you refuse, your just as bad as I am, arguably worse.

you talk about many issues but only cite one side of the story- where's the other half?

2. I'm not affiliated with the Watchtower in any shape or form, so they are not my "bosses" - you can go smoke that one..

3. shall we just list a few famous who said we should understanding "was" as aorist? try Barclay - if you read my cited sources awhile back there are a bunch listed on there, you know the bit where you said I was disrespectful

4. Where is God as a whole called "Firstborn" because God is pre-eminent over all creation aswell right?

6. why would I cite to you where your Greek philosophy lies? you give me no reason to want too, as this is nothing but a wind up.. Just look at the language you use and compare, it aint hard - or try a catholic dictionary, where most ADMIT the trinity is a made up fabrication. tho protestants have a hard time with this..

" where does the New Testament use the terms 'ktizo', especially 'poio', for the origin of the Son from the Father? " - there's a grammatical pattern your missing, but ill let the "genius" figure that one out.

list everything created and where it is called a "creature" Dm me that list - everything had better be explicitly called a creature + it had better come from the books of the bible (Gen - Rev) no where else.

shall we look at the other usages in the lxx where the one called firstborn was not only part of its respective group (sons of, creation etc), but also the first one in a position. Who all had a beginning.

I have opened it up, you can stop selectively quoting now..

did anyone called firstborn only have pre-emminence and was never born... if it only meant pre-emminence and not its lexical meaning then it shouldn't be applied to anyone else
Jesus is the beginning, the firstborn of the dead - because he was not only part of the group (dead) but also the first one resurrected under what I believe is called the "new covenent" hense "First" or "beginning" of that respective group. (the resurrections God performed through him, no longer matter) just as in Hebrews 11:17 theres a reason monogenes is used of Issac - he is not eternally begotten as trinitarians would have it (if they were consistent) but is the only begotten (GRK means: sole descent/ lineage) of Sarah and her "new" husband.

still waiting on an example of where someone is called firstborn but not part of the group. - nobody else on here can find me an example. and no Ro. 8:29 doesnt count ask any of the sources I cited previously. it means the same.. (see biblehub aswell)