TonusOH

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Posts by TonusOH

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  299

  Who told the first lie?

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

  god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

  in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

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  TonusOH

  Taken literally, that might be the strangest part. Is it evil to be naked?
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  37

  Reddit thread re Oct 2024 WT with picture of window washer - Theme knocking people who Planned

  by LongHairGal in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this thread currently has over 300 comments.. it shows a picture of an older man washing a window looking wistfully… then it talks all about how some may have doubts about not having planned and the situation they are in now that they are older, etc.

  it refers to others who did plan and who supposedly have ‘apparent’ financial security.

  in my opinion, the whole gist of this article is to make older witnesses feel better who did not pursue a career or plan well for retirement.. it tries to imply that those others who planned only have ‘apparent’ financial security - which is to say they don’t (?).

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  TonusOH

  LongHairGal: It tries to imply that those others who planned only have ‘apparent’ financial security

  They will say that those who put everything into the organization have built up treasures in heaven. Which is to say that it will all be okay after they are dead. But we have to wonder why that matters. If you worked and saved for your later years, are you punished for not building up enough spiritual treasure? If you go to heaven anyway, what difference did it make? Does the other person get a nicer heavenly dwelling because they put every last dollar in the contribution box and ate stale bread every night?

  You wouldn't be denied from heaven just because you learned to plan for retirement, right? So, you go to heaven and that person who trusted the GB (and suffered for it) also goes to heaven. You're both in heaven! If there is a "lower-tier" of heaven, it would still be heaven! Would god be nicer to that other person? Who cares! You're in heaven!

  I suppose the WTS attitude is to say that you don't want to risk ending up dead forever because you fell just below the qualifications for salvation. I'm wondering why god would hold that against you. Is being financially responsible a pet peeve of his?
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  28

  Remember the sex talks?

  by KerryKing in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i remember sitting through public talks where the speaker spent the hour discussing in great detail anal sex, masturbation (of yourself and others), sex during menstruation and so on.

  .

  i was a child, looking back now, i realise that they systematically stripped away our childhood innocence, we knew and heard things no 'worldly' child would have heard.. the child abuse and grooming happened to every single one of us, the feelings of guilt and shame was in all of us even if we didn't actually do anything bad, the mental images caused by these filthy men hung around in our innocent minds till there was no room for that innocence.. it has taken me 44 years to realise that what was done to us, even those of us not physically abused, is a crime.. do they still have talks like that nowadays i wonder?

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  TonusOH

  Jan, the USA is far more prudish that most other countries, especially Europe. We're not too far removed from a time when the religious right wielded significant influence over politics and even daily life, to some degree. The question of teaching evolution in public schools is still an issue in many parts of the country. And our approach to sex and sex-related topics is mostly still to pretend that we didn't hear the question.
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  25

  New instructions on not using sisters to manage KH computer ?

  by fifth.column in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  since covid in france, especially in the countryside with lack of brothers, it was quite common that some sisters were using the computer at the back of the kingdom hall to manage zoom session.. i heard a rumor that new instructions, maybe a july letter, stated that this was reserved for male only, even unbaptised publishers, but no sister if there is at least a male available.

  that would be a steps back and disappointment for these sisters.

  last week i heard at my mom’s house how they were happy that this service was available for them, a proof that the org was moving forward.

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  TonusOH

  NotFormer: It's tempting to think that he sourced his theology from cartoons.

  Some of his writings would have been right at home in a Pogo cartoon strip.
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  299

  Who told the first lie?

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

  god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

  in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

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  3. 
• 

  TonusOH

  My experiences will always be human, unless I am changed in some significant way. If this change is required for the universe to make sense, I still think we could have skipped all of the bad stuff along the way.

  But, if there is an angle that explains that it was necessary, or that god felt that this was the best way forward... I have to wonder what it says about the nature of god. Some Christians will explain that suffering is necessary for us to better understand certain things. If this is the case, then we would have missed out unless Adam and Eve sinned. That would mean that their fall was a better outcome. I don't think this makes sense.

  If their fall was the worse outcome, then there was a possible universe where there never was suffering. And if this was the case, I still think we would have been better off with that path. If you believe in eternal torment for those who are condemned by god, then their suffering could have been avoided as well.

  So we could have had a universe where everyone was always happy and no one ever suffered. We ended up with one where suffering has been a constant state for thousands of years, and will be a constant state forever for a great many people. I think the former is the better option. If it isn't, then I would be very worried about the nature of the person who runs this universe, that he would see that second outcome as acceptable, especially since it required two people to do what he expressly asked them not to do.
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  10

  Apostates are still public enemy number one - WATCHTOWER August 2024

  by raymond frantz in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  https://youtu.be/rqyqibpnuos?si=zayoa2c-zvmj9_br.

  under the theme "help for those who are removed from the congregation" study article 35 in august 2024 wafchtower that deals with the many changes the organization introduced recenly we specifically look into paragraphs 14 and 15 that deal with the way that we now treat disfellowshipped ones, or more accurately removed ones , since this is the new term.

  and see how they still try to micromanage their members down to the finest detail and how still apostates and more accurately active apostates are public enemy number one.

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  TonusOH

  Before: avoid all contact with the 'removed' person.

  After: you can invite the 'removed' person to meetings and greet them there.

  That's hardly a change. They make it clear that 'do not socialize' means avoid any contact with them aside from inviting them to a meeting and greeting them at the meeting. This is doing the absolute minimum that they can get away with, so that they can say "we do not shun." That is very cynical.
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  22

  The Rapture

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  when i was pioneering, i don't remember ever addressing the rapture question.

  does anyone know how a jw would respond to this verse?

  for the lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of god.

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  TonusOH

  Rattigan350: However, we can't follow what Paul or Jesus said as that is old light.

  "Jesus didn't know what he was talking about" is certainly a new way of looking at things. Mind you, I don't necessarily disagree. But it wasn't on my bingo card for this topic.
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  27

  Awake 1976 - Should a Pocket Calculator Be in Your Pocket?

  by Ron.W. in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  awake 1976 - should a pocket calculator be in your pocket?.

  somehow this totally zany 'bible based' article passed me by first time around!.

  anyone remember it?.

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  TonusOH

  Someone at the WTS was pretty suspicious about technology, it seems!

  Maybe it was the same person who kept warning us about the dangers of the internet, back in the 1990s and early 2000s.
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  22

  The Rapture

  by Sea Breeze in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  when i was pioneering, i don't remember ever addressing the rapture question.

  does anyone know how a jw would respond to this verse?

  for the lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of god.

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  TonusOH

  My understanding was the same as ThomasMore's: it was describing the way the anointed would be immediately summoned to heaven upon death, which began to happen after 1914. I don't even recall hearing the word "rapture" much at all as a JW. To the extent that I ever thought about it, I assume I saw it as another false teaching of "Christendom."
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  299

  Who told the first lie?

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

  god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

  in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  TonusOH

  Halcon: many folks do feel that need in their heart to show appreciation for their Creator. Not everyone is opposed.

  That isn't the point I was making. The god described in the Bible is quite needy and demands recognition. This doesn't fit with a person of immense power who deigns to deal with the population of a vanishingly small portion of a universe he formed with his own hands. It's one of the reasons I cannot make sense of him.

  Halcon: For the same folks I mentioned above, this isn't a problem.

  Are you sure? Life in heaven is never described in the Bible, aside from angels going about their assignments and future residents making sure god receives his due glorification. An eternity of that is not something that a typical person -no matter how devout- seems able to stomach without some very notable changes to their personalities.

  This is one of the issues I have with the whole setup. If we have to be changed this significantly in order to spend eternity with god, it would have been far more sensible to skip the part where things go wrong and incredible suffering results for a few thousand years. If humanity needed repairs, better to have gotten them done right at the start.