Posts by TonusOH

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

TonusOH

KalebOutWest: Which God are you arguing over?

This is always an issue when discussing the Bible, which itself could be described as two Bibles (OT and NT), which themselves are collections that may or may not include many other books. Even for those Christian denominations that share the same Bible, there is no shortage of explanations for who and what god is, what he wants, what he plans, and so on. To discuss the 'god of the Bible' is to discuss thousands of versions of that being.

Since the JW religion was the only one I followed, I am biased towards that version and those interpretations. I can keep up with discussions to some degree only because that version isn't too different from mainstream Christianity, at least as it developed in the west. When I was a JW, there was one correct version/interpretation and many wrong ones. Now, there are just a great many versions and interpretations, and I can try to look at it from each individual's perspective. Not always easy, but otherwise I risk talking past the people I am talking to.

15

Has the Organization threatened to disfellowship those who state views countering those of the Slave?

by Vanderhoven7 in

do you have quotations from watchtower literature regarding how to handle those contributing to disunity in the congregation?.

TonusOH

I don't remember the specific copy of The Watchtower where I read it, but I do recall there was an article about relying on the GB for knowledge and interpretation of scripture. They offered an example of a couple who had a different view about a particular issue, and were counseled to trust the GB's interpretation. Instead, they spoke to others about their view of it, and were disfellowshipped as a result. Later -the article tells us- the GB came around to the same point-of-view as this couple. The article made it clear that they were not reinstated, because their 'crime' was not being wrong-- it was that they went against the GB and tried to undermine their authority.

To me, that is an example of the GB threatening the rank-and-file with expulsion if they challenged any of the organization's views and interpretations. I remember reading it because it was one of those things that bothered me on some level. It meant that, for the GB, being correct was secondary. Being obeyed was primary.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

TonusOH

Taken literally, that might be the strangest part. Is it evil to be naked?

37

Reddit thread re Oct 2024 WT with picture of window washer - Theme knocking people who Planned

by LongHairGal in

jw
friends

this thread currently has over 300 comments.. it shows a picture of an older man washing a window looking wistfully… then it talks all about how some may have doubts about not having planned and the situation they are in now that they are older, etc.

it refers to others who did plan and who supposedly have ‘apparent’ financial security.

in my opinion, the whole gist of this article is to make older witnesses feel better who did not pursue a career or plan well for retirement.. it tries to imply that those others who planned only have ‘apparent’ financial security - which is to say they don’t (?).

TonusOH

LongHairGal: It tries to imply that those others who planned only have ‘apparent’ financial security

They will say that those who put everything into the organization have built up treasures in heaven. Which is to say that it will all be okay after they are dead. But we have to wonder why that matters. If you worked and saved for your later years, are you punished for not building up enough spiritual treasure? If you go to heaven anyway, what difference did it make? Does the other person get a nicer heavenly dwelling because they put every last dollar in the contribution box and ate stale bread every night?

You wouldn't be denied from heaven just because you learned to plan for retirement, right? So, you go to heaven and that person who trusted the GB (and suffered for it) also goes to heaven. You're both in heaven! If there is a "lower-tier" of heaven, it would still be heaven! Would god be nicer to that other person? Who cares! You're in heaven!

I suppose the WTS attitude is to say that you don't want to risk ending up dead forever because you fell just below the qualifications for salvation. I'm wondering why god would hold that against you. Is being financially responsible a pet peeve of his?

28

Remember the sex talks?

by KerryKing in

i remember sitting through public talks where the speaker spent the hour discussing in great detail anal sex, masturbation (of yourself and others), sex during menstruation and so on.

.

i was a child, looking back now, i realise that they systematically stripped away our childhood innocence, we knew and heard things no 'worldly' child would have heard.. the child abuse and grooming happened to every single one of us, the feelings of guilt and shame was in all of us even if we didn't actually do anything bad, the mental images caused by these filthy men hung around in our innocent minds till there was no room for that innocence.. it has taken me 44 years to realise that what was done to us, even those of us not physically abused, is a crime.. do they still have talks like that nowadays i wonder?

TonusOH

Jan, the USA is far more prudish that most other countries, especially Europe. We're not too far removed from a time when the religious right wielded significant influence over politics and even daily life, to some degree. The question of teaching evolution in public schools is still an issue in many parts of the country. And our approach to sex and sex-related topics is mostly still to pretend that we didn't hear the question.

25

New instructions on not using sisters to manage KH computer ?

by fifth.column in

since covid in france, especially in the countryside with lack of brothers, it was quite common that some sisters were using the computer at the back of the kingdom hall to manage zoom session.. i heard a rumor that new instructions, maybe a july letter, stated that this was reserved for male only, even unbaptised publishers, but no sister if there is at least a male available.

that would be a steps back and disappointment for these sisters.

last week i heard at my mom’s house how they were happy that this service was available for them, a proof that the org was moving forward.

TonusOH

NotFormer: It's tempting to think that he sourced his theology from cartoons.

Some of his writings would have been right at home in a Pogo cartoon strip.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

TonusOH

My experiences will always be human, unless I am changed in some significant way. If this change is required for the universe to make sense, I still think we could have skipped all of the bad stuff along the way.

But, if there is an angle that explains that it was necessary, or that god felt that this was the best way forward... I have to wonder what it says about the nature of god. Some Christians will explain that suffering is necessary for us to better understand certain things. If this is the case, then we would have missed out unless Adam and Eve sinned. That would mean that their fall was a better outcome. I don't think this makes sense.

If their fall was the worse outcome, then there was a possible universe where there never was suffering. And if this was the case, I still think we would have been better off with that path. If you believe in eternal torment for those who are condemned by god, then their suffering could have been avoided as well.

So we could have had a universe where everyone was always happy and no one ever suffered. We ended up with one where suffering has been a constant state for thousands of years, and will be a constant state forever for a great many people. I think the former is the better option. If it isn't, then I would be very worried about the nature of the person who runs this universe, that he would see that second outcome as acceptable, especially since it required two people to do what he expressly asked them not to do.

10

Apostates are still public enemy number one - WATCHTOWER August 2024

by raymond frantz in

jw
friends

https://youtu.be/rqyqibpnuos?si=zayoa2c-zvmj9_br.

under the theme "help for those who are removed from the congregation" study article 35 in august 2024 wafchtower that deals with the many changes the organization introduced recenly we specifically look into paragraphs 14 and 15 that deal with the way that we now treat disfellowshipped ones, or more accurately removed ones , since this is the new term.

and see how they still try to micromanage their members down to the finest detail and how still apostates and more accurately active apostates are public enemy number one.

TonusOH

Before: avoid all contact with the 'removed' person.

After: you can invite the 'removed' person to meetings and greet them there.

That's hardly a change. They make it clear that 'do not socialize' means avoid any contact with them aside from inviting them to a meeting and greeting them at the meeting. This is doing the absolute minimum that they can get away with, so that they can say "we do not shun." That is very cynical.

22

The Rapture

by Sea Breeze in

when i was pioneering, i don't remember ever addressing the rapture question.

does anyone know how a jw would respond to this verse?

for the lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of god.

TonusOH

Rattigan350: However, we can't follow what Paul or Jesus said as that is old light.

"Jesus didn't know what he was talking about" is certainly a new way of looking at things. Mind you, I don't necessarily disagree. But it wasn't on my bingo card for this topic.

27

Awake 1976 - Should a Pocket Calculator Be in Your Pocket?

by Ron.W. in

awake 1976 - should a pocket calculator be in your pocket?.

somehow this totally zany 'bible based' article passed me by first time around!.

anyone remember it?.

TonusOH

Someone at the WTS was pretty suspicious about technology, it seems!

Maybe it was the same person who kept warning us about the dangers of the internet, back in the 1990s and early 2000s.