Posts by spider

66

Interfaith Relationship

by Christina77 in

i am currently involved in a relationship for the last year and a half with a man that i found out about 2 months ago is a jehovahs witness (and i am catholic).

the only reason why i found this out, was that i was pushing the issue as to why his parents do not know that i exist.

this really irritated me since he has a very close relationship with his parents.

I am trying to think of solutions here rather than be a prophet of gloom. I gave that up.
You're last messages make this hard.The idea of looking at witness videos together makes the hairs stand on end. He does not seem to be mentally preparing to leave the witnesses. Rather the reverse.

He believes its the truth. Here lies the problem. I do not know if you understand what this means to a witness. That isn't meant to be patronising.
Catholic's, Protestant, Baptist have faith in Christ. They believe however that there could be alternative ways of worship - alternative ways of living that are acceptable.
For a witness there is only "the truth". And "the truth" is of couse, the truth.
There is no other way. No other acceptable option. No walking out without God's rejection and death. Outside is the wilderness,barren; full of danger. There's no hope outside. Only borrowed time waiting for Armageddon.
He believes this - after you're last few mails I see that.
His internal tape recorder spouts messages; the same ones, over and over. He does not really reason, he just hears the messages and reacts. He thinks he is thinking but its just years of indoctrination playing out.
"Its the truth;there is nowhere else;if I leave I will be destroyed". These continue again and again along with a million other messages. They make him feel guilty. They make him go to meetings. They could make him stop seeing you.
While this goes on there is something else - something inside - it is stunted,under nourished, pale and barely audible. It is fighting for breathe.It is him.
This is his true nature,fighting to be expressed. He struggles to keep you. Overpowered, supressed, trapped within a web of circular reasoning, false doctrine, unfair expectation. There is the organizations heavy hand pushing him down. There are the messages again,'the truth' is the truth is 'the truth' is the truth. He is losing concousness.

I know of people who have left the witnesses believing its the truth. I have known witnesses that have not been going on the ministry that believe that they will be destroyed at Armageddon.
A witness might say "I know God will kill me; it is his right and I probably deserve it."
Whatever he does for God, it is never quite enough.He must try harder, do better. He will never live up to such high standards. Such thoughts lead to disillusionment. This is when ones true self breaks the water for air and gains control.
It is a constant battle. Who will win?
Its strange but this war against terrorism doesn't help. Witnesses look to world events to guage the closeness of Armageddon.When they see such things they say "this is it". There's a rise in meetings attendance,field service activity.People like you're friend, panic and think its time to get with the programme.
Things are going badly for you. If the illusion were to be broken;If he were able to find out that the organization is not God's only mouthpiece - that it is one giant mirage; Then you might have a shot. But, that's a hell of a job and would take commitment and understanding of his religion which you do not have now.

I hope things improve, I really do.Be prepared though to face that this might not go as you hope.

66

Interfaith Relationship

by Christina77 in

i am currently involved in a relationship for the last year and a half with a man that i found out about 2 months ago is a jehovahs witness (and i am catholic).

the only reason why i found this out, was that i was pushing the issue as to why his parents do not know that i exist.

this really irritated me since he has a very close relationship with his parents.

spider

I am not sure whether or not you have an accurate concept of "disfellowshipping".
If his parents knew of his involvement with you it is unlikely that they would be telling you about their son's favourate meals.
They would of course be disappointed with their son but in their love for him they might try to find excuses for him. You however they do not know.They will see you as the evil influence that has manipulated and tempted him into this course. You got a black look from one of his friends.Do you think that it will be any different with his family?
Disfellowshipping however is not just being the black sheep.It is the severing of all communication.A witness would not even give eye contact to a disfellowshipped one, nor give a greeting.Perhaps his relatives may not be quite this severe - there can be some room for flexibility with close family members,however the relationship would be strained and limited.As for friends, these would definitely be lost.
Would he be disfellowshipped if the elders found out about his immorality?
Would he be disfellowshipped if he married you?
I would say, probably yes to both.
If he had dated you for a while and then it had ended,there wouldn't have been any difficulties.This has only become a problem for him because things have grown so much more serious between you.
You're talking of marriage and that is just not possible without things changing significantly for him.
You need to get him thinking.He has committed himself to marrying you. Ask him what will happen if this occurs. He needs to be thinking realisically about this and not just ignoring it and hoping it will go away.Don't confront him.Ask him pertinent question about you're future together.How it will work with him being a witness.How it will affect his relationship with his parents.How he feels about it all.
If you get him thinking about such realities then he will start to realize that decisions need to be made.
One last thought -
There is a way of leaving the witnesses without being disfellowshipped.The term is "fading away" or "drifting out".
As the name suggests it is a fairly slow process.There is no acknowledgement of a problem.A person just goes to less and less meetings until after a while people forget all about you.
Once enough time has passed you could then get married quietly.That could work.He would still have to leave the religion but his relationship with his family might be much improved.

66

Interfaith Relationship

by Christina77 in

i am currently involved in a relationship for the last year and a half with a man that i found out about 2 months ago is a jehovahs witness (and i am catholic).

the only reason why i found this out, was that i was pushing the issue as to why his parents do not know that i exist.

this really irritated me since he has a very close relationship with his parents.

spider

"when he met me he was thinking about getting out of it and then... he dropped off what he was saying. He did the same thing when I asked him why didn't he try to convert me.he just said that he thought about it, but... and dropped it again."

What was on the end of those statements, do you think?
perhaps "then I was scared"
and "but I don't really believe it myself enough to convert you"

What does he have to be scared of? What does he have to lose if he were disfellowshipped? Does he have family in it? Close friends. Was he born into the religion or did he convert?
If he was raised in it then it's all he's known.Leaving would be more terrifying.
If he has family, particulary parents in the religion then he must deal with their disappointment and perhaps loss.
As for not wanting to convert you, this could be for two reasons.
He does not believe it enough himself.Also,he has been behaving in a very unwitnesslike way; a fact of which you are well aware.This is not the basis for bringing you into the religion. If you became a witness you would see him as an immoral hypocrite.
He has everything finely balanced.You on one hand, the witnesses on the other.He is the fulcram keeping the balance. If he moves one way or another he loses something important to him.So he stands perfectly still,holds his breath and hopes against hope there are no sharp gusts of wind.Not a sustainable position in the long term.

66

Interfaith Relationship

by Christina77 in

i am currently involved in a relationship for the last year and a half with a man that i found out about 2 months ago is a jehovahs witness (and i am catholic).

the only reason why i found this out, was that i was pushing the issue as to why his parents do not know that i exist.

this really irritated me since he has a very close relationship with his parents.

spider

I do not really have any good advice.
I can however understand his condition.You stated that he appears at times to have a split personality.This often happens to witnesses.
I remember the assembly talks back in the eighties "Youths, guard against leading double lives".
On the one hand a person appeared to behave like the model witness. When away from the scrutiny with worldly friends,behaviour would change to mimic those around him.
To some extent all witnesses learn to do this.After all,they do live in two very different worlds.They have opposing rules and standards.To live in both one learns how to be a chameleon.Its necessary for suvival.
What happens when worlds collide?
As a child this was always the nightmare. Going door to door and meeting a school friend.How to behave? How to speak? The worldly way or the witness way?
Witnesses learn to compartmentalize things.As long as they remain apart everything is okey.
You're boyfriend had a life that was seperate from you.It was neat, controlled and he could deal with it this way.
Now this is changed and his brain is in conflict.Its like matter and anti-matter coming together.
You're the conduit of two opposing forces.His witness self and his worldly self.In you he see his own duplicity.
You know he's a witness but hasn't behaved as one.You know his secret.There is a part of him that is scared of the damage you'd do if you ever revealed it.
Noone can function with such discord in his head.Arms pulled in different directions. He says "I don't know" to you.Its no wonder.
Through you he feels guilt and shame.He tries to be a good witness to absolve these negetive feelings.
He tries harmonizing his fractured world by behaving like a witness with you too.He must somehow bring unity to chaos. He wishes things could go back to the way they were before,but knows its impossible.
Two opposing forces battling in one conflicted brain. Both can't suvive. One must win out.
He doesn't want to make a choice but he must.It won't be easy.He might try to keep things together.Keep all balls in the air for a while longer.You're relationship may suffer.
In the end, for you're good and for his, he will have decide what is most important to him.
I wish you luck.

25

relationships and relatives

by butalbee in

for the last 7 months i have been involved in a "friendship" with a jw.

he really was my best friend, who i felt i could confide in and trust with my life.

i have to admit that i have never felt as close to another person before in my life, it was as though we were on the same level--he would finish my sentences, know what i was thinking, and feeling.

spider

You're friend is no doubt in a very difficult position.
He does not appear to have a strong interest or belief in the religion.He seems to be on the fringes.
If this were any normal religion a person with such apathy would simply leave.For a witness the choice is not so easy.
I can imagine a conversation going on between you're friend and his brother.
He would be shown the scriptures.He'd be told the negetive consequences.All the guilt feelings and emotional blackmail would be used to the fullest.In the end it generally comes down to this question :
"You do believe that this is the truth, don't you?"
He may not, I do not know.To answer this question in the negetive though has devastating consequences.It takes immense courage to say, "no, actually I don't".
I guess the only thing I can compare this to is coming out of the closet to intensely homophobic parents.
It is emotionally terrifying.Not only that, but if you make this admittance then shunning from family and friends will most likely be the next consequence.Thus a person might not believe and yet still lie that he does.

If you're friend says he does believe its "the truth" then his brother gains power and moral authority over him.If its the truth then by definition, his actions are obviously wrong.How can he go against Jehovah's laws?
You're friend is forced into a weak position.He might offer up his feeling for you as a mitigating circumstance but the watchtower rule is clear.When the brother suggests that the problem could be solved if you came into "the truth", you're friend feels powerless to contend with the argument. You should be a least given the chance to suvive at armageddon.
This conversation has probably taken place.You're friend would know of his brother's intentions.He might not neccessarily like them but if he has told his brother that he believes its "the truth" then how can he possibly dissent. He grins,bears it and feels impotent.
He is involved in a game where every rule is turned against him.As long as he accepts the rules of this game he loses.There is no way to win.He may be searching for a way; a loophole to bring things into his favour but it doesn't exists.The only way to win is not to play.

When he is ready to say he does not want the truth or does not believe it, things change. Only then will his brother's power over him be lost.
He might not have ever considered that the truth is wrong bu simply knows he is disatisfied.It usually takes a catalyst of some kind to make someone consider things from another point of view.You may be this catalyst.
Don't be angry with him. I speak as one who took a long time to tell his parents that he no longer wanted to be a witness.It is traumatic and a person needs to be ready.

25

relationships and relatives

by butalbee in

for the last 7 months i have been involved in a "friendship" with a jw.

he really was my best friend, who i felt i could confide in and trust with my life.

i have to admit that i have never felt as close to another person before in my life, it was as though we were on the same level--he would finish my sentences, know what i was thinking, and feeling.

spider

Dear batalbee
I find you to be very perceptive in you're comments.Th only thing that slightly worried me was when you said :

I am concerned why he hasn't been going to those meetings. He should go, it is who he is, and what he believes!

For most religions I would agree with you wholeheartedly.Jehovah's witnesses however are no ordinary religion. Some call them a totalitarian sect, others a cult.If you have ever read the book 1984 then you will have an accute insight into the level of control that is bing exerted on you're friend.
Jehovah's witnesses use subtle yet powerful forms of mind control. A witness will not aware of the way the strings are pulling him but they are there nonetheless.There are many different ways.One of them is through the coming together with other members to reinforce the indoctrination process.This is done three times a week.Rather a lot by most standards.If this is not done constantly then the spell starts to lift.They begin to see things more normally and they are labelled by members as "spiritually weak".
When you say,being a witness is who he is,if this were true then he would be the same whether he went to the meetings or not.However the opposite is normally true.When he is not going to meetings and the indoctrination process stops, then he can become himself with his thinking faculties and objectivity.
I urge you to read some information about mind control and its effects in this religion.For instance check out :
http://watchtower.observer.org/apps/pbcs.dll/article?Date=20010204&Category=JWANDMEDICINE5&ArtNo=204017&Ref=AR
There are also articles on the freeminds site under watchtower psychology.
It is not simple as saying "it's who he is".He is being controlled in many ways that he cannot see.I did not see how I was controlled till I had left.That is normal.
I do not say that you should encourage him not to go to meetings as this could be dangerous.I would just say that if he voluntarily does not want to go then do not see this as a bad thing.It shows things are working in you're favour.The religion says that he should not be with you.He cannot deal with the internal conflict this presents so he is missing meetings.
One last thing. His brother is giving you the Isiah book no doubt because he wants you to go to the book study where is being gone through I believe. Think about it. His attempts at breaking you up have failed.The only option he has in preventing his brother from potentially leaving the religion is to make you a witness.
Does you're friend accept that you have no intentions of becoming a witness? If he does and he is still willing to go out with you then there is no problem - at least at present.
I am interested in you're story
Keep us posted
spider

6

Relationsips

by sophie in

hello i dont know that much about jehovahs witness beliefs .

but i am wondering if anyone could help me understand their views .

on relationships, marriage and dating between them and people who are not jehovahs witnesses.

spider

This seems to be a common problem.If you have not already, check out the threads started by butelbee and the record collector.They may be of help.
You asked what would happen if a witness started talking about liking a non-witess in a romantic way.I guess if this imfortation got to an elder,as it is likely to do, then that person will be taken aside and counselled - ie shown scriptures and witness material about not yoking yourself with unbelievers.They would then be expected to come to their senses.
If they actually started dating this person then more pressure would be put on them.They would lose privilages in the congregation, they would find that their friends started to view them as bad association and would no longer mix with them socially.
If it came to marriage then disfellowshipping could be on the cards.I would not think they would be disfellowshipped before marriage but I could be wrong.
As for the witness trying to bring the non-witness into the religion.This does happen but elders are going to suspect something and they are the ones that need to be pleased.
No kind of romantic relationship could begin until that person has leaped through all the elders hoops first.They would have to study for an extended period,go on service, go to all the meetings, get baptised.The elders would be on the lookout for any lack of sincerity or ulterior motive.
Even after baptism they would have to show themselves to be in a good standing in the congregation before the elders are happy with things.
As for dating people of other religions.No, this is absolutely not permitted.You could be a faithful christian in any other faith but it does not matter a jot - witnesses believe they alone have the truth and all other religions are condemned by God to destruction.Go figure.

19

JW & NON-JW RELATIONSHIP

by TheRecordCollector in

hello folk's;.

i am not a witness, but a very dear friend is.

a woman that i love very dearly.

spider

You need to become her best friend, without the stress of romantic intentions by you to her. You need to connect with her on a deeper level--when you look into her eyes--do you know what she is thinking? You need that "cosmic connection" with JW if you are ever able to break through to their hearts.

You're comment struck me as incredibly true. I thought it might be just me that likes to be good friends first.Just me that likes to know a person's mind and heart and soul before committing himself.
Perhaps though it was part of th conditioning.I think we were taught to treat relationships seriously.Most did not commit themselves to courtship unless they knew that person quite well already.Even though I left the witnesses three years ago I still have these values which I find tend to make having relationships so much harder in many ways.Hopefully though, more rewarding.
Butalbee is right in just about everything she said.Focussing on the romantic relationship so early without really becoming close enough mentally and emotionally would friek her out.
There are so many implications to dating a non-witness. There is so much pressure from the peer group and the leaders to marry only in the religion.To not obey could mean losing the approval of everyone she values, being cut off from them completely.She would also be losing God's approval,as far as she would see it.
Then there is the fact that worldly people are demonized.You have bad morals - you will want to sleep with her blah,blah,blah.These and more,are messages she has been conditioned with for as long as she's been a witness.
Of course the prospect of losing everything would friek her out.To have any hope of things going in you're favour, she needs to already care very deeply for you.So deeply that she would consider going against everything in her life to be with you.
That's what you're up against.
My advice would be to let it go.
Easier said than done though, I guess.

43

Fallout Over The WT-UN Contraversey

by Ranchette in

jw
friends

yes, fallout has already begun (literally)over the wt-un contraversey!.

a long time jw friend of ours told my husband today that he has already disassociated himself from the organization after seeing the proof of wt's immoral affair with the beast.. this was the last straw for him.. i wonder how many others this info is going to effect this way?.

we will see.. ranchette

spider

msil
That was very cunningly done.
His defenses were down and bammm!
I love stories like that.
Nice one.

19

JW & NON-JW RELATIONSHIP

by TheRecordCollector in

hello folk's;.

i am not a witness, but a very dear friend is.

a woman that i love very dearly.

spider

Butalbee
Really glad to hear you got things sorted out.
all the best
spider