Posts by SpiderMonkey

97

WAR & RUMORS OF (NUCLEAR) WAR

by You Know in

a question for all to consider is: if pakistan and india go nuclear, as seems to becoming more likely by the day, how long will civilization be able to stay intact without completely unraveling, and during that interval will ridiculers be able to maintain the delusion that nothing out of the ordinary is happening in the world?

/ you know.

> http://www.msnbc.com/news/753586.asp?pne=msn&cp1=1

SpiderMonkey

(chuckle) If I had a link for this, I'd post it, but, You Know, you're not worth the time it'd take to find one (approximately 15 seconds).

"TENSIONS EASING IN NUCLEAR NEIGHBORS' FACE-OFF": from the New York Times this weekend. It seems that Musharraf is making good on his promise to stop infiltration across Kashmir, and also is planning to dismantle terrorist training camps when he's politically able to do so. India calls this a "promising process," and for the first time acknowledges that Pakistan is taking real action to stop the Kashmir terrorism.

d'OH!!! Another false prophecy down the tubes. Perhaps you should work with Israel/Palestine for a while, YK, maybe you'll have a better success rate (i.e. "there will be another suicide bombing!"... can't go wrong there, & maybe someone will be impressed for a change).

SpiderMonkey

42

From JW to Pagan

by Sirona in

jw
friends

i've noticed that quite a few people on this board have said that they are now pagan.

i'm starting to wonder if converting to paganism is something that many ex-jws do?

being a pagan myself, i am actually surprised at how i could choose the religion that jws probably hate the most.

SpiderMonkey

Thanks to Sirona & SaintSatan for the welcome :)

And I want to say that I've really enjoyed the healthy debate here, esp. b/w COMF & Sirona!

But, COMF, I think you should recognize that this opening statement seemed unnecessarily hostile from the beginning:

I came away with the knowledge that it, like Christian religions, is just another powerless superstition sidetracking humans from reality.

You state this as "knowledge," and therefore give weight to Sirona's argument, from the very beginning, that you assume *your* belief system to be true. By extension, you seem to assume that others see *their* belief systems to be true, universally true, and this in fact isn't the case with Paganism. My own experience with other Pagans has shown me that most truly believe that your belief makes your reality, and that most respect other Pagans' concept of reality, because they're not (aside from the occasional freak) trying to alter anyone else's. And my experience with spells is limited; I've only tried 3, at various times in the last 5 or 6 years, and of those one was a pretty frivolous one that didn't really need any "magical" help to achieve. The other 2 didn't have *any* business succeeding whatsoever (in your 'logical reality'), and yet did...

so... What?

Perhaps, in your worldview, my "spells" succeeded because of a belief in them, a psychosomatic self-fulfilling prophecy. Or you might think I'm *interpreting* "results" in a way that verifies my pre-ordained definition of reality. But, in my experience, whether I provide details of those 3 "spells" and their "effects" or not, you'll claim "interpretation" or "self-fulfilling prophecy," and won't even consider the *possibility* that there could be more to it.

So who's "right" or "wrong" about all this? My point is: Isn't it in the individual taste, perception, and willpower to make any one system work, whether their own or someone else's? Myself, I'm for coming up with one's own system. That's what's produced *results* for *me*. But who would I think I was if I said I spent an afternoon reading some books and came away with the "knowledge" that a generalized concept of a certain belief system was wrong? That is PERFECTLY analagous to a born-again Christian reading some atheist literature and coming away with the "knowledge" that it's wrong for everyone, because it doesn't coincide with his or her predetermined beliefs.

To add a counterpoint to your beliefs, my belief is this: Each of us creates our own reality through our own beliefs, not vice versa. So which of us is right, and who cares, and which (if either) of us has the right to say (as you did) that the other is wrong, wrong, wrong?

SpiderMonkey

97

WAR & RUMORS OF (NUCLEAR) WAR

by You Know in

a question for all to consider is: if pakistan and india go nuclear, as seems to becoming more likely by the day, how long will civilization be able to stay intact without completely unraveling, and during that interval will ridiculers be able to maintain the delusion that nothing out of the ordinary is happening in the world?

/ you know.

> http://www.msnbc.com/news/753586.asp?pne=msn&cp1=1

SpiderMonkey

"Britain, Russia, and the U.S. are all sending high level envoys to India and Pakistan to try and defuse the situation before something horrendus happens. Do you think the governments of those leading nations have been taken in by sensational news reports?"

No, I think these (and other) nations are getting involved to prevent a war, any war, from further terrorizing an already unstable region. Your statement implies that that you think no would bother to send any envoys at all unless they thought India & Pakistan were going to use every single nuke in their arsenals any day now. Bull[dog]! No one wants *any* war in the Middle East, especially right now, when it would threaten the continued round-up of Al-Qaeda, potential negotions between Israel and Palestine, etc.

The fact that big world powers are sending top-level envoys to defuse a potential war in a volatile region does not, as you suggest, mean that the worst-case scenario is going to happen; rather, it means that the leaders of these powers are not complete imbeciles (and I *do* hate having to admit that from time to time ;)

SpiderMonkey

1

Prophetic Patterns for You Know

by gravedancer in

jw
friends

your own organization uses prophetic patterns to the hilt (see the "survival" book).. well following their lead now go and read the old testament (that's the hebrew scriptures in your new world translation).

look up the accounts of israel......then take a look at the prophetic pattern in galatians 6.... "israel of god".....aka the the 144,000 - right?

(per their own interperetation).. well when israel let their children pass through the fire what happened?

SpiderMonkey

LOL, GD... well, not really "laughing" at all, because it is sad... but a good analogy. the witnesses are sacrificing children to appease an angry god =(

SpiderMonkey

97

WAR & RUMORS OF (NUCLEAR) WAR

by You Know in

a question for all to consider is: if pakistan and india go nuclear, as seems to becoming more likely by the day, how long will civilization be able to stay intact without completely unraveling, and during that interval will ridiculers be able to maintain the delusion that nothing out of the ordinary is happening in the world?

/ you know.

> http://www.msnbc.com/news/753586.asp?pne=msn&cp1=1

SpiderMonkey

YK, that article is interesting in that it assumes a worst-case scenario. Hardly unusual considering the media's desire to sell newspapers! I'm surprised you take this stuff literally, as though it WILL happen because it could. Heh, then again, you read the Watchtower.

SpiderMonkey

10

how does Jehovah rationalize Babel?

by SpiderMonkey in

i'll try to keep this concise... this is an issue i never got an answer to, from the elders or any witness, on my way out of the "truth":.

jws believe that god permits evil to answer the "age-old challenge from satan the devil," that man can't rule himself without god, correct?

(please correct me if i'm wrong).

SpiderMonkey

I'll try to keep this concise... This is an issue I never got an answer to, from the elders or any witness, on my way out of the "truth":

JWs believe that god permits evil to answer the "age-old challenge from Satan the Devil," that man can't rule himself without god, correct? (please correct me if I'm wrong)

So... What's up with the Tower of Babel? I seem to remember (don't have a bible now, so can't check myself) that chapter of Genesis saying something about god fearing the potential of man, and therefore confusing the tongues of the Babel tower-builders... And, if taken literally as the witnesses do, well... Can you think of any single greater divisive force in the history of man than the fact that we are all clustered into language groups, from which (to a VERY great extent) come our cultures, and even the evolution of our separate religious structures? Research shows that a young child's learning a certain language sets up a certain logical structure in the brain (i.e. the Chinese structure being quite different from the English), thereby (I would suspect) making one culture / language group's religion very difficult to faithfully transmit to another, if not impossible. With different languages, suspicion develops, because you literally (even if you learn the other language) do not know what the other group is thinking; the seeds of war are already there, in other words. Seems to me as though Jehovah cheated on his challenge ;)

I'll emphasize that I don't believe in this bible story; just brought it up to raise the question I have about seeming contradictions in the witness' worldview here.

SpiderMonkey

P.S. For that matter (OK conciseness be damned ;) what about the matter of supposedly unleashing the demons on the world in 1914? I thought the challenge was that man couldn't govern himself, not that he couldn't do so with the deck stacked against him!

97

WAR & RUMORS OF (NUCLEAR) WAR

by You Know in

a question for all to consider is: if pakistan and india go nuclear, as seems to becoming more likely by the day, how long will civilization be able to stay intact without completely unraveling, and during that interval will ridiculers be able to maintain the delusion that nothing out of the ordinary is happening in the world?

/ you know.

> http://www.msnbc.com/news/753586.asp?pne=msn&cp1=1

SpiderMonkey

"You are apparently unaware of how fragile the system is. Nuclear war would absolutely panic the money boys. There is no way investors would leave billions of dollars on the table in the face of nuclear war. The markets would most likely collpase in a matter of hours."

The world financial system is bloated, corrupt, prejudiced, and unstable. That's why it will eventually be replaced with something better (go ahead, insert your childish nyah-nyah statement: "that's right, Jehovah's Kingdom!") To believe otherwise would be idiocy; you obviously assume me to be an idiot, even while you prove yourself one with such statements as this:

QUOTE]no one in their right mind suggests that the world will go on in a business-as-usual fashion if even one nuke is ever used again against human targets. [/QUOTE]

"Are you admitting that you are not in your right mind then?"

Well, nyuk, nyuk, I know you are but what am I, and all that. Thanks for the intelligent debate.

You're not bad at quoting the bible, and some other sources, to show where you got your ideas from. It's just unfortunate you don't seem to have any of your own to share (aside from "Jehovah's Witnesses are mostly right, but I'm right-er").

SpiderMonkey

21

"PEACE & SECURITY" has been decla...

by proplog2 in

declarations of peace occur at regular intervals.

wars end and.

treaties are signed.

SpiderMonkey

thank you, guest77, for those excellent points about Native Americans... a people who more truly exemplified Christianity than the greedy "Christians" who slaughtered them, and than their intolerant "Christian" descendants today.

as for you, Proplog, I take exception to this statement:

"You simply have to be a very self-deluded and narrow minded optimist like Metatron to believe that humans can get past this stage. The danger is not increasing in a straight line fashion. It seems to be following a sigmoid curve."

it seems to me that it all depends on your focus and perception. you begin with an assumption of human hopelessness, because that is what the WT tells you is the case: only god can save us. then you focus on those events and issues that seem to support that view. you may notice a positive event, issue, or trend in the news, and yet you don't dwell on it, because it doesn't support your assumption. you might even spin it in some way, making it out to be negative from the standpoint of god (as with the UN, greater peace and security b/w US & Russia, etc).

I'm not familiar enough w/ Metatron's posts yet to comment there, but I believe as D Wiltshire does; I begin with an assumption of hope, because to live otherwise would be to rob myself of the joy that I assume is my birthright as a human being. To live otherwise would also be to contribute to a potentially self-fulfilling prophecy, were enough humans to allow themselves the luxury of such despondence, and dependence on gods (or aliens for that matter, or new age harmonic convergences, or anything else that people use to convince themselves they don't have to *do* anything since "it'll all be made better FOR us"). From this assumption of hope, I note the positive events & trends in the news and history much more so than the negative; although the events of 9/11 sent me reeling, I'm not such a "self-deluded optimist" that I haven't LONG known that such an event was headed for America. I wept for my fellow humans that died that day, as for all humans who die before their time, and I wept for the arrogance that helped bring that tragedy to our own soil, and I wept for the ignorance capitalized on by religious extremists to cause young men to do such a thing. But... we evolve. We were taught that day, not just mindless pride in being American, but that we can't ignore the rest of humankind, nor trample over them, without suffering some consequences ourselves. As in the traditional scientific view of evolution, it sometimes takes a great tragedy to force humans to grow *emotionally*, *socially*, even *internationally*.

That is what I believe is the real trend of modern history. But who's to say who's right, and what's going to happen? You? Me? Your gods? My gods? I guess we'll just have to wait and see =)

SpiderMonkey

97

WAR & RUMORS OF (NUCLEAR) WAR

by You Know in

a question for all to consider is: if pakistan and india go nuclear, as seems to becoming more likely by the day, how long will civilization be able to stay intact without completely unraveling, and during that interval will ridiculers be able to maintain the delusion that nothing out of the ordinary is happening in the world?

/ you know.

> http://www.msnbc.com/news/753586.asp?pne=msn&cp1=1

SpiderMonkey

"You know, the financial system that's presently tottering on the edge of collapse?"

somehow, I don't think the world financial system depends on the well-being of India and Pakistan, or even on the Middle East as a whole, or even on the reliability of the oil flow from that region. would nuclear war there bring a "great tribulation" to mankind? undoubtedly. are the world's leaders likely to be saying "peace and security at last" immediately before such a tribulation? HAH. you are engaging in fantastic speculation, trying to scare people into converting, just as the WTS does, just as the majority of Christian religions do with hellfire (and are subsequently ridiculed by the WTS for using scare tactics, as opposed to their "sober warnings").

"the political system that holds things together....sort of? You don't honestly think that the world would go on in a business-as-usual fashion if millions of people are instantly obliterated on the Indian Sub-continent do you?"

no one in their right mind suggests that the world will go on in a business-as-usual fashion if even one nuke is ever used again against human targets. rather, as has already been posted, the vast majority of nuclear powers are likely to keep their nukes (and their borders) more closely guarded than ever before. "rogue nations," it is true, would be likely to try to take advantage of the chaos in some way, even in some massively destructive way; but is it likely that a single suitcase nuke would wind up on American soil, with America at its all-time greatest level of caution? HAH. is it likely that a rogue nation has the technical ability to send a missile into America? HAH. is it likely that even China would try to nuke America, when they'd already be able to see the horizon glowing at midnight as a result of their close neighbors nuking one another to smithereens? HAH.

"A few months back a couple of planes slammed into the WTC and the Pentagon and it nearly brought the nation to it's knees."

that is patently false. the nation was not "nearly brought to its knees." we were in shock at first, and then *immediately* the country pulled together to save what could be saved, begin the work of rebuilding, and stop such a thing from ever happening here again. and, whether such a thing DOES happen here again or not, even with nukes, it's a shame you can't admit to yourself that the human race is a hell of a lot stronger than your tiny little god would have us believe.

"That was really nothing compared to nukes---the ultimate terror weapon. / You Know"

ignorant scare tactics: You Know, you are full of them, and full of "it." what really gets one's attention here is not the horror of the thought of such things happening, but that one who sees himself as a witness of Jehovah is so gleeful to imagine such things happening to his human brothers and sisters, and SOON.

SpiderMonkey

7

"East Metairie"/N.O.,LA, USA ex-JW's?

by SpiderMonkey in

welllllll... this is my first post on this forum =) i've enjoyed some of the paranoiac screaming back&forth on the un thread (hehehe, no, i mean really enjoyed it), but what i'd really like to do is contact any ex-jdubs from the east metairie cong in louisiana; i was there during the late 80s / early 90s... especially phoebe, if you're out there; i know it's a long shot!.

peas, spidermonkey

SpiderMonkey

well, this is dramatic testimony that the "Reunions" part of this page works!!! Just a day after that post, who comes popping into the chatroom but my old friend Phoebe, and we just talked on the phone and are getting together Friday night to catch up w/ each other!!!

Puppylove and AhHah, I can't thank y'all enough for spotting that post and helping us to connect again!

much love, SpiderMonkey