Posts by stevieb1

Well the Topic Subject says it all. I'd love to have your input on this question.

As many may be aware The Watchtower of September 1, 2004, pp.30-31 dealt with this question. Here is there answer in full. See what you think.

Why do Jehovah?s Witnesses take the number 144,000 mentioned in the book of Revelation literally and not symbolically?

The apostle john wrote: ?I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand.? (Revelation 7:4) In the Bible, the phrase ?those who were sealed? refers to a group of individuals who are chosen from among mankind to rule with Christ in heaven over the coming Paradise earth. (2 Corinthians 1:21,22; Revelation 5:9, 10; 20:6) Their number, 144,000 is understood literally for several reasons. One is found in the immediate context of Revelation 7:4.

After the apostle John was told in vision about this group of 144,000 individuals, he was shown another group. John describes this second group as ?a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues.? This great crowd refers to those who will survive the coming ?great tribulation,? which will destroy the present wicked world. ? Revelation 7:9, 14.

Note, however, the contrast that john draws between verses 4 and 9 of Revelation chapter 7. He states that the first group, ?those who were sealed,? has a definite number. However, the second group, ? a great crowd,? is without a definite number. With that in mind, it is logical to take the number 144,000 to be literal. If the number 144,000 were symbolic and referred to a group that is actually numberless, the force of the contrast between the two verses would be lost. Thus, the context strongly indicates that the number 144,000 must be taken literally.

Various Bible scholars, past and present, reached the same conclusion ? that is, the number is literal. For instance, in commenting on Revelation 7:4, 9, British lexicographer Dr. Ethelbert W. Bullinger observed some 100 years ago: ?It is the simplest statement of fact: a definite number in contrast with the indefinite number in this very chapter.? (The Apocalypse or ?The Day of the Lord,? page 282) More recently, Robert L. Thomas, Jr., professor of New Testament at The Master?s Seminary in the United States, wrote: ?The case for symbolism is exegetically weak.? He added: ?It is a definite number [at 7:4] in contrast with the indefinite number at 7:9. If it is taken symbolically, no number in the book can be taken literally.? ? Revelation: An Exegetical Commentary, Volume 1, page 474.

Some argue that since Revelation contains highly symbolic language, all numbers found in this book, including the number 144,000 must be symbolic. (Revelation 1:1, 4; 2:10) That conclusion, though, is clearly not correct. Granted, Revelation contains numerous symbolic numbers, but it also includes literal numbers. For instance, john speaks of the ?twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.? (Revelation 21:14) Clearly, the number 12 mentioned in this verse is literal, not symbolic. Further, this verse is literal, not symbolic. Further, the apostle John writes about ?the thousand years? of Christ?s reign. That number is also to be taken literally, as a careful consideration of the Bible shows. (Revelation 20:3, 5-7) Hence, whether a number in Revelation is to be taken literally or symbolically depends on its background and setting.

The conclusion that the number 144,000 is literal and refers to a limited number of individuals, a relatively small group when compared with the ?great crowd,? also harmonizes with other Bible passages. For instance, later in the vision that the apostle John receives, the 144,000 are described as those who ?were bought from among mankind as firstfruits.? (Revelation 14:1, 4) The expression ?firstfruits? refers to s small representative selection. Also, while Jesus was on earth, he spoke about those who will rule with him in his heavenly Kingdom and called them a ?little flock.? (Luke 12:32; 22:29) Indeed, those from among mankind who will rule in heaven are few in comparison with those of mankind who will inhabit the coming Paradise earth.

Hence, the context of Revelation 7:4 and related statements found elsewhere in the Bible bear out that the number 144,000 is to be taken literally. It refers to those who will rule in heaven with Christ over a paradise earth, which will be filled with a large and undetermined number of happy people who worship Jehovah God. ? Psalm 37:29.

57

Why Did God Call ME Out of the Watchtower?

by stevieb1 in

jw
friends

i was just thinking on this issue last night - why did god happen to guide me to a more accurate knowledge of the bible instead of the many other sincere people still in the congregation i used to associate.

what makes me so special as to warrant this blessing?

is a good education in bible doctrine the sole criterion for exiting the watchtower when there are many sincere ones who are not natural students who seem permanently trapped in the cycle of watchtower feeding.

stevieb1

I was just thinking on this issue last night - why did God happen to guide me to a more accurate knowledge of the Bible instead of the many other sincere people still in the congregation I used to associate. What makes me so special as to warrant this blessing? Is a good education in Bible doctrine the sole criterion for exiting the Watchtower when there are many sincere ones who are not natural students who seem permanently trapped in the cycle of Watchtower feeding. How do you feel about this question?

5

David Algar & UK DO's

by stevieb1 in

jw
friends

has anyone ever had any dealings with some of the uk district overseer's such as david algar and paul presland.

i remember listening to them speak at circuit assemblies and you couldn't hear a pin drop.

just wondering if they are still do's?.

stevieb1

Has anyone ever had any dealings with some of the UK District Overseer's such as David Algar and Paul Presland. I remember listening to them speak at Circuit Assemblies and you couldn't hear a pin drop. Just wondering if they are still DO's?

8

Anyone from near Preston, UK?

by stevieb1 in

jw
friends

anyone know any ex-jw's from the preston, lancashire area of the uk?

stevieb1

Anyone know any ex-JW's from the Preston, Lancashire area of the UK?

54

2003 District Convention Releases

by stevieb1 in

jw
friends

.

anybody an idea what they are this year?.

stevieb1

Anybody an idea what they are this year?

2

Witness Apologists

by stevieb1 in

jw
friends

with so much going wrong with the wts why do intelligent individuals such as greg stafford and rolf furuli strive to defend it of their own volition?

secondly, have any ex-jw's who have read stafford's books almost been convinced that wt doctrine is bible based after reading hs argumentation?

it is my understanding from my own research into the wt that most witness academics eventually leave the organization as a result of their research, even when they originally set out to defend it.

stevieb1

With so much going wrong with the WTS why do intelligent individuals such as Greg Stafford and Rolf Furuli strive to defend it of their own volition? Secondly, have any ex-JW's who have read Stafford's books almost been convinced that WT doctrine is Bible based after reading hs argumentation? It is my understanding from my own research into the WT that most Witness academics eventually leave the organization as a result of their research, even when they originally set out to defend it. Does Jay Hess or Chris Christenson ring any bells from the past? Both were academically minded and both even wrote articles for the Society. I'd be interested in noting your thoughts on these matters plus I'd love to hear any news you have particularly on Greg Stafford's position with the Society. Regards Steven

11

How does Church Compare with Kingdom Hall?

by stevieb1 in

jw
friends

this is for ex-jw's attending church..... how were your first impressions of a church as compared to your association at the kingdom hall?.

how long was it after you left the wt before attending church?.

were you at first reticent about starting to attend church?.

stevieb1

This is for ex-JW's attending church....

How were your first impressions of a church as compared to your association at the Kingdom Hall?

How long was it after you left the WT before attending church?

Were you at first reticent about starting to attend Church?

Last but not least, do you "feel" the love from your present Christian associates and how does it compare to th "love" at the Kingdom Hall?

Regards

Steven