Posts by Apognophos

27

Elder Appointments

by MaybeSo in

doing some research as to what qualifications someone needs to meet to become an elder, i came up with one conclusion: it's who you know and is very subjective.. funny thing is too, if you searc the wt online library there are not recent articles that describe and outline the requirements.

which makes me think that there were too many requirements and as we all know, it is based now on how close you are with the current co and not necessarily on being a model jw in the congo.

so the borg decided to leave it up all to the co and not tell the rest what to look for on these appointed men.. you could do your hours, be early to the meetings, be prepared, keep your car and house clean, family in good reputation, etc but if you are in the circle then you can forget it.

Apognophos

Okay, what is the advantage of being an elder?

Status, I guess? Good question. Personally I saw the prospect of becoming an elder as more of a threat than anything. It seemed like a punishment for being zealous. "Good job being a ministerial servant, now you have to: give more and longer talks, conduct field service more, set an even better example (or give the appearance of one, at least), handle various bureaucratic stuff and perhaps sit on judicial committees, go to elder's meetings after the public meetings are done and everyone else is going home, and deal with various and sundry problems thrown into your lap in person and over the phone at all hours of the day by the neediest publishers in the congregation."

And how many people in any given congregation want to become one?

Probably not many more than are ones. There's usually trouble finding enough brothers who are fit for promoting to elder or MS, and usually if a brother wants to qualify, he will be able to do what's needed. That's why there's often talks being given to encourage brothers to "reach out" for more "privileges", and this little speech is also given to brothers when the elders visit them on shepherding calls.

Is it considered gauche to express a desire to become an elder?

More or less, yes. But if you just say that you're "reaching out", it's a euphemistic way to say the same thing. If you say that often though, the elders will be leery of you for seeming power-hungry.

Also, if one had more ambition, how could one become a member of the Governing Board?

Well, you'd have to profess to be anointed, and you'd have to climb the ladder from elder to circuit overseer, then district overseer, then various positions in headquarters leading up to becoming one of the helpers to the Governing Body. It's probably possible to bypass the overseer rungs by taking the Bethel route and being promoted internally. Of course it would be pretty hard to actually do all this on purpose -- about the same odds as starting off as fry cook in a McDonald's and aiming to become a VP of the McDonald's corporation.

73

Elders removed in Northern PA. Congregation

by ToesUp in

jw
friends

a close family member just informed me what happened during their last c.o.

visit.

this occurred 3 months ago.

Apognophos

Yes. Sometimes there are good ethical reasons to remove elder bodies, e.g. if they are oppressing the congregation or covering up each others' wrongdoing. What's strange is that the CO did not give a talk about any particular sin afterward in order to imply "this is why we're removing the elders". Is it possible that the talk was just his regular, prepared discourse and it had nothing to do with the removal?

12

2014 AGM - Splane and Pyramids

by berrygerry in

just read a comment on a site that said:.

"at the annual general meeting this year at stanley halls it is on tv.jw.org david splane said the pyramid of giza the bible students believed in for calculating time periods were from pagans".

wasted 2 hours watching the am on jw tv.. splane indeed says this, and that br.

Apognophos

No. You have to read between the lines:

"He let [the slave's] reason win out over [his own, inconsequential] emotion."

20

One of my main problems with the WT: A very irresponsible organization

by Hidden-Window in

jw
friends

one of my main problems with the watch tower and, more specifically, with the governing body is the level of irresponsibility seen when lives of people are involved and their unapologetical attitude when people suffer due to their absurd policies.. how many people were imprisoned or killed for refusing to perform civil service in exchange for military service?.

we do not know, but it does not matter, because the society does not even apologize for the harm their blinking light caused.. how many people died or contracted illnesses due to the prohibition of vaccines?.

we might never know, but an apology is not on the menu.. how many people died for refusing (or disfellowshipped for accepting) fractions of blood when it was against the rules?.

Apognophos

CoCo: I think they meant that more JWs have been killed by their own blood policy than the number of JWs killed by those dictators who opposed the religion.

It is still reasonable to see that 70,000 of died in past 50 years, if you consider children of the the JWs who were not baptized or relatives who are associated with them.

Yes, I agree.

3

Matthew 24:36-37

by lambsbottom in

matthew 24: 36 concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the son, but only the father.

37 for just as the days of noah were, so the presence (parousia) of the son of man will be.. i had always thought jws took 36 as meaning christ's coming at armageddon (erchomai), after the 1914 presence (parousia).

however, the greek word in 37 is parousia.

Apognophos

I believe the Society considers "the day" to be Armageddon, yes. That's why they wrote:

"This is, therefore, no time to be indifferent and complacent. This is not the time to be toying with the words of Jesus that 'concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.' To the contrary, it is a time when one should be keenly aware that the end of this system of things is rapidly coming to its violent end. Make no mistake, it is sufficient that the Father himself knows both the 'day and hour.'

--Watchtower (Aug. 15, 1968)

The contradiction that you're sensing here was expounded on by cofty in his famous parousia letter where he pointed out that the parousia certainly seems to be described as a sudden, visible, unpredictable event, not as an invisible period of presence that begins at a predicted time. The Society's teaching on this is so tangled up after all these years that they had no response they could give him that doesn't endanger the very foundation of the religion, the "successful" 1914 prediction.

41

3 JWs injured whilst Cart Witnessing

by Listener in

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/25697590/three-injured-as-car-hits-park-bench/.

an elderly driver crashed into a park bench in mandurah, western australia today where 3 jws were sitting.

they had set up their jw cart and their literature was also strewn across the ground.. one of the jws was seriously injured with head injuries.. what a freak accident this is.. .

Apognophos

Heh. Well it sounds like this is a more common expectation amongst Witnesses than I thought. I suppose we all prefer to imagine that we lead a charmed life so that we don't worry so much about what might happen to us in an uncertain world. Religious people in general like to believe that God or an angel is watching over them personally, and probably some of this thinking bleeds into the JW religion from the sides (JWs on the fringe, or those with Christian relatives who are saying this kind of thing), and it spreads from there.

73

Elders removed in Northern PA. Congregation

by ToesUp in

jw
friends

a close family member just informed me what happened during their last c.o.

visit.

this occurred 3 months ago.

Apognophos

That's the only way to deal with an out-of-control elder body. The CO clears them out. How else would it be done? Just like your boss' boss can fire your boss, so the CO has the authority to remove the elder body -- though I wouldn't be surprised if it needs to be run by the branch first.

41

3 JWs injured whilst Cart Witnessing

by Listener in

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/25697590/three-injured-as-car-hits-park-bench/.

an elderly driver crashed into a park bench in mandurah, western australia today where 3 jws were sitting.

they had set up their jw cart and their literature was also strewn across the ground.. one of the jws was seriously injured with head injuries.. what a freak accident this is.. .

Apognophos

Look at the reports I posted on page one: all those JWs were killed while in a group, on their way to an assembly or meeting. In fact, the 27 JWs killed in the Philipines were killed in a Kingdom Hall...told to go to the meeting by the GB during a typhoon.

When the literature says that the Witnesses are protected as a group, it doesn't mean "group" as in "a few people gathered in one place" but rather "as a class".

*** w08 8/15 p. 5 par. 10 Jehovah Will Not Leave His Loyal Ones ***
Moreover, Psalm 116:15 assures us: “Precious in the eyes of Jehovah is the death of his loyal ones.” Jehovah’s servants are so precious to him that he will not allow them to perish as a group.

*** w75 6/15 p. 377 par. 10 Looking to the Future with Confidence ***
Should we expect, moreover, that because Jehovah is on our side he will miraculously intervene to protect each one of us personally from death or injury during the “great tribulation”? Both Psalm 91:7-12 and Proverbs 3:25, 26 have been mistakenly cited by some as supporting this view. The psalm says: “A thousand will fall at your very side and ten thousand at your right hand; to you it will not come near.” Lest we read into this text more than it states, we must ask ourselves if Moses is here talking about the coming “great tribulation” and is declaring a blanket protection for individual servants of God then. This would hardly be so when we remember that centuries later Paul showed that up to his time the devoted followers of Jehovah had undergone mockings, scourgings, prisons, tribulations and many other persecutions, even violent death. However, we can be assured that, as a group, Jehovah will protect them from being exterminated by their enemies during the “great tribulation,” and He, himself, will not touch them during his executing of adverse judgments.—Heb. 11:36-38. [emphasis theirs, though it was originally in italics]

And chapter 7 of the Draw Close book covers this thoroughly, but I won't copy-paste the whole chapter here. The point is, if JWs have some sort of personal superstitious belief that they are protected by the angels, then it didn't come from the literature.

At every assembly (and many meetings) I've ever gone to, the brother giving the never fails to ask Jehovah to protect the attendees as they "return to their various homes".

Well, that may be, but I don't think they're supposed to. It's probably just one of those bad habits that spreads around but isn't approved of, like when brothers had to be reminded not to ask for "extra" holy spirit in the public prayers.

How foolish would the Society have to be in order to claim that bad things wouldn't happen to JWs while in service or traveling to assemblies? Even they're not that stupid.

73

Elders removed in Northern PA. Congregation

by ToesUp in

jw
friends

a close family member just informed me what happened during their last c.o.

visit.

this occurred 3 months ago.

Apognophos

I've personally heard of an elder body being dissolved in one case, and although I wasn't privy to the details, it was definitely a moral failing or lack of responsibility on the part of the elder body rather than failing to send in money, etc.

However I have no idea what "indecisiveness" means in connection with removing elders, so that's bizarre. Maybe they were too lenient, giving reproofs instead of disfellowshipping, but then I would think that the CO would give a talk about standing up for Watchtower principles, maybe throw in the story of Phinehas as an example or read Paul's instruction to disfellowship the man who lived with his father's wife from 1 Corinthians.

20

One of my main problems with the WT: A very irresponsible organization

by Hidden-Window in

jw
friends

one of my main problems with the watch tower and, more specifically, with the governing body is the level of irresponsibility seen when lives of people are involved and their unapologetical attitude when people suffer due to their absurd policies.. how many people were imprisoned or killed for refusing to perform civil service in exchange for military service?.

we do not know, but it does not matter, because the society does not even apologize for the harm their blinking light caused.. how many people died or contracted illnesses due to the prohibition of vaccines?.

we might never know, but an apology is not on the menu.. how many people died for refusing (or disfellowshipped for accepting) fractions of blood when it was against the rules?.

Apognophos

Yeah, 250,000 is definitely bogus. There was a huge thread on this a while back and lots of people disagreed with that estimate. Just ask yourself how, with an organization that only now numbers 7 million members, a quarter million people could (a) be badly injured and need blood, and (b) die from not receiving it.