Hmm, this article is quite a hack job. Will something so full of inaccuracies do much good? Perhaps if it sways the public's opinion, then the end justifies the means....
Apognophos
JoinedPosts by Apognophos
-
68
Raphael Aron in The Age newspaper: Jehovah's Witnesses 'a cruel cult'
by WinstonSmith inthis popped up on the age website today, might have to buy the paper tomorrow..... http://www.theage.com.au/national/jehovahs-witnesses-a-cruel-cult-20130315-2g5x3.html.
-
-
-
130
How many former Jehovah's Witnesses bury their head in the sand when it comes to reasoning about the NGO "conspiracy"?
by Change Name inhi all - sure sure, you can call me a troll or brainwashed cult member.
i am totally interested in how your answers to these questions.. .
do you find yourself ignoring anything that jehovah's witnesses bring out in regards to their former status as an ngo?.
-
-
Apognophos
I just wanted to point out that Change Name doesn't appear to have been involved with the JWS for very long
Oops, my bad. I had read one of his posts that indicated he had become inactive and I thought that this was after a number of years being a Witness. He also had a CD-ROM, which is only given out to publishers or baptized publishers AFAIK. I didn't realize he was just a Bible study.
Then I retract my statements, Change Name, about how you should know what the Society used to say. Suffice to say that you will see lots of similar rhetoric about the UN if you look back in the publications. For those of us with a history as a Witness, this thinking was deeply ingrained into us, so as soon as we read those articles talking lightly about the UN as if they were just some charitable organization, we immediately noticed the tone was very different. When I looked up the '90s articles on my CD-ROM, I remembered the confusion I felt when I first read some of them and thought, "Why aren't they pointing out how the UN is the wild beast? Why are they giving them so much credit?" In some cases, the article that follows the lead-in does touch on the UN being the wild beast, but they kept that little "tidbit" of prophetic interpretation out of the initial article, which is what I find so fishy.
-
130
How many former Jehovah's Witnesses bury their head in the sand when it comes to reasoning about the NGO "conspiracy"?
by Change Name inhi all - sure sure, you can call me a troll or brainwashed cult member.
i am totally interested in how your answers to these questions.. .
do you find yourself ignoring anything that jehovah's witnesses bring out in regards to their former status as an ngo?.
-
-
Apognophos
I have the WT CD and read the first few articles from the Awakes. Nothing wrong with what they have said. Did they build up the UN as the only hope for mankind.
It's possible that you are lacking the historical context to appreciate what's strange about the phrasing of these articles. The ones that I looked up basically made two statements: "1. The UN is sincerely attempting to help with this or that world situation. 2. It's unlikely they can succeed, but God can, and let us show you some scriptures to that effect (followed by Bible-oriented article)." It's all very... level-headed and... reasonable.... Which is not how the Society used to refer to "the wild beast".
I'll freely admit that this is a conspiracy theory, but the suspicion is that the Society used the lead-ins talking about the UN's mission as a way to fulfill a requirement to promote the mission of the UN. They then, of course, would segue into a Bible topic to justify bringing up the UN and to satisfy JW readers. So, in answer to your question: No, they did not build up the UN as the only hope for mankind. Obviously if they had, the organization would have collapsed by now as Witnesses fled in shock, assuming that apostates had taken over the Writing Department.
So, no, they wouldn't do that, they couldn't do that if they wanted to, and I doubt they want to. The NGO situation is simply a case of 'something being rotten in the state of Denmark', but we don't know what. It's impossible to know exactly what they were thinking when they signed up, however as you acknowledged, the Society is also making use of at least one sub-group at the UN in order to further their preaching work and alleviate persecution. If you yourself were more than a "Jack JW", you would know just how hostile the Society used to be in their literature towards the UN and the League before it, and would be bothered by the sudden reasonableness in their discussion of, and cooperation with, the Beast.
You said you have the WT Library CD-ROM, right? It took me two minutes to find this representative quote about the UN from the "old-school" literature (WT Mar. 1, 1959):
30 Likewise in this time of the end, when Jehovah’s witnesses are particularly warning Christendom concerning the coming of God’s executional forces at Armageddon. Now her rulers, backed by her priests and prophets, take refuge, not in Jehovah’s provided resting place and place of ease, but in worldly alliances. First, Christendom proposed and took refuge in the League of Nations, from 1919 down to 1939. Then, from 1945 till now, she has concealed herself behind the world-peace-and-security organization, the United Nations. Heedless of Jehovah’s witnesses, Christendom in effect says:
31 ‘You witnesses, with your message of the day of vengeance of your God Jehovah, can’t scare us. The Death and Sheol that you predict for us won’t touch us or harm us. We have got on good terms with Death so it will not touch us by those executional forces of your Jehovah God. We’ll survive and you won’t. We have come to a good understanding with Sheol, which you witnesses say is the common grave. We have a vision with it; we see alike as to the outcome of matters. Sheol will not open its mouth or enlarge itself to receive us, and you witnesses of Jehovah will never bury our bones after what you call Armageddon. Ha, ha! We once made our refuge the League of Nations and the Court of International Justice. Since World War II we have concealed ourselves behind the United Nations, its security forces, its Committee for Disarmament, its International Court of Justice, and all the defensive alliances and pacts that have been formed within the framework of the United Nations. So those forces of destruction about which you witnesses of Jehovah are doing such sensational preaching will never reach us or sweep us into Death and Sheol. They will be swept back, and our Egyptian refuge and place of concealment will hold out. They are our last and only hope, but they will not fail us. They will prove true to us, and you witnesses will prove to be calamity howlers, false prophets such as we have all along said that you were.’
[...]
33 We witnesses also quote Psalm 33:17-19: “The horse [of Egypt for warfare] is a deception for salvation, and by the abundance of its vital energy it does not afford escape. Look! the eye of Jehovah is toward those fearing him, to those waiting for his loving-kindness, to deliver their soul from death itself, and to preserve them alive in famine.” Today Christendom has a symbolic “image of the wild beast.” Each member of the United Nations has joined in setting it up or in maintaining it for worship as an idol image for worship by the worldly nations. Concerning it we quote Jeremiah (10:14, 15): “His molten image is a falsehood, and there is no spirit in them. They are vanity, a work of mockery. In the time of their being given attention they will perish.” Hence we witnesses say: The war horses of antitypical Egypt will not avail Christendom. The Devil-inspired, man-made images symbolizing peace and security now worshiped by the nations will prove to be no gods. The alliance of Christendom’s religions with this political world is an unclean, ungodly deception. As a refuge and place of concealment the League of Nations proved to be a lie, even without the coming of the battle of Armageddon. Not less so now, when the actual “war of the great day of God the Almighty” is impending, the United Nations is a lie and a falsehood! Jehovah says so through his Word.
Does this sound like the same organization that would use the UN as a means to gain entry into opposing territories and protect its brothers from persecution, good motives aside? What happened to fleeing from Babylon the Great so we don't share in her sins? (Yes, I know Babylon is Christendom; but Babylon is "sitting on" the very organization the Society is a member of!).
2 hours is too long to be on this computer
With all due respect to your life and your family commitments, you should be willing to spend lengthy amounts of time researching and then reflecting on these sorts of issues. When I began learning TTATT, I read late into the night, using a Bible and the WT Library to confirm what I was being told about the Watchtower's teachings and past teachings (becoming sleep-deprived didn't help my job performance, but I just had to know the truth and didn't hesitate to suffer a little personally in order to answer my burning questions).
I admit that many of the responses you are getting are unhelpful and immature; sadly, the posters seem unaware that there are people lurking on this thread who honestly want answers, and they can only be turned off by smart-ass-ery. That being said, you are at risk of letting other peoples' alleged motives put you off from a personal road to enlightenment. It's easy to challenge other people to do your work for you and then reject their side of the issue when they mock you instead of giving answers, but it's also intellectually dishonest and lazy. I'm not calling you dishonest and lazy (seriously, I'm not), but when you focus more on the negative responses you've gotten and on the attitude of the forum, you make it sound like you're leaning in that direction.
Hi again Apognophos - Read my message to Finkelstein. I think reactions are telling of the person I am talking to.
Frankly, comments like this make me wonder why you're even here, as you seem more concerned with other peoples' motives than in having a discussion. If you wanted a level-headed debate you shouldn't have started the thread with inflammatory or accusatory language. Why not just "disconnect" from forums like this one and do your own research and come to your own conclusions? The Internet is full of hot air that isn't educational or edifying. That being said, there are ones here that you can learn a lot from if you approach them with some humility.
P.S.: I will just reiterate that there are, in my opinion, better examples of hypocrisy and troubling secrets in the history of the Watchtower than the NGO situation, since it's so hard to know the facts in this case. I don't want to get off-topic by naming other issues here, however. If you're interested in hearing about them, please PM me or start a thread asking what people's single biggest objection to WT teaching is.
-
229
How exactly did Jesus fulfill the law NOT the prophecies.
by mP intheres a clear difference between prophecies (predictions of future events) and laws(stuff you should and shouldnt do).. now since xians always says jesus fullfilled the law, how does one fullfill a bunch of requirements like dont murder, dont worship idols, shave your beard like this etc.. there are 613 laws in the torah, jewish rabbis have done all the hard work and we have a nice list on wiki.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_mitzvot.
im confused which of those some how select a unique individual to be the unique messiah ?
then again there were many messiahs, every king and priest of israel and judea was a messiah.
-
-
Apognophos
The basic question in the OP has already been answered, and by more than one poster.
It's true, I've already given up because I can't think of any other ways to say the same thing. I wouldn't necessarily call mP a hater; he's just making no effort to understand what people are saying to him.
-
7
Watchtower magazine from 3/1/1953??
by wolfman85 inany of you have access to the watchtower magazine from march 1, 1953?.
it is true that the wt acknowledges in that magazine page 143 that you don't need to belong to any church or organization?
i will appreciate if you can post that declaration.
-
-
Apognophos
I read the article over. Boy, it almost seems like the writer was putting one over on the Society by slipping that in. Either that or he was lost in doublethink. Anyway, the section after that paragraph is "Clergy Failure" and talks about how Christendom is teaching false doctrines and the churches are in decline. Basically, you have to keep in mind that that the attitude was "Church = Christendom = Organized Religion = A Snare and a Racket". That being said, in the section after that, the article refers to "the true Christian organization"....
But in short, if you're asking if the article ever goes on to explain why, if someone doesn't need an organization, it's still necessary to be a Witness, the answer is "no, it doesn't". Near the end of the article it simply says, " So take your stand beside Jehovah’s witnesses. Study God’s Word and, obeying it, shun the apostasy of Christendom. Join in praising God. Be entirely, completely, wholly, unreservedly dedicated to Jehovah[...]". This kind of sentiment seems incompatible with the rhetoric I'm used to hearing these days, about how badly we need the slave class to tell us what the Bible says.
-
20
Crazy public talk last Sunday: The Origin of Humans - Does It Matter What You Believe?
by 88JM infrom the congregation that brought you these watchtower comments, i thought you would enjoy some selected quotes from the public talk we had last sunday from the crazy talk outline: "the origin of humansdoes it matter what you believe?".
it's amazing this talk outline is still allowed - some of the material is hilarious, and the arguments are so wild and misrepresented.
i still have the audio file if you can bear to listen to it, i could pm you a link.
-
-
Apognophos
The WT loves Denton, but he seems to be the only one they ever quote to show that "scientists" disagree with evolution.
-
26
Hypocritical comments by JWs regarding the Catholic Church in light of the new Pope.
by Theocratic Sedition ini'm curious, what can you expect to hear from jws this week?
or have you heard anything already.
since awakening, i find it to be hilarious when jws badmouth catholics and the pope but are completely oblivious to how hypocritical they are considering the gb and other wt heavyweights..
-
-
Apognophos
@00DAD: Nice.
-
9
Memorial Flyer Acknowledges Public Disdain for JWs - Implicitly
by 144001 inyesterday, i had the opportunity to review the official jw invitation to their "memorial" event.
the front of the flyer has a well-groomed, caucasian jesus, leading all the minority people somewhere .
most likely to a factory in brooklyn to serve as slaves for a publishing company.. curiously, there is no mention of jehovah's witnesses anywhere on the face of that flyer.
-
-
Apognophos
It's just a different layout, that's all. Someone wanted to use more of the right side of the painting for the wider format of the web page, and this would have cut off the old folks on the left, so they removed that layer altogether. It's just normal graphic design principles at work, nothing to see here, move along folks.
-
16
March 2013 KM in our cong.....are BLUE
by monkeyman indownload from this site is pink.
is this a sneaky way to ferret out those who get theirs from this site?.
-
-
Apognophos
I miss the October orange issues.
-
130
How many former Jehovah's Witnesses bury their head in the sand when it comes to reasoning about the NGO "conspiracy"?
by Change Name inhi all - sure sure, you can call me a troll or brainwashed cult member.
i am totally interested in how your answers to these questions.. .
do you find yourself ignoring anything that jehovah's witnesses bring out in regards to their former status as an ngo?.
-
-
Apognophos
I guess the real point here, Change Name, is either you are swayed by this basic hypocrisy of the WT being in the UN, or you're not. The details are not relevant, the reactions of other people and their personal treatment of the evidence is not relevant. Form your own opinions. Ignore this issue entirely if you feel that JWs are closest to the truth and you really want to be a part of the organization. Personally, I was less shaken by this than by a few other aspects of the religion when I learned the truth about them.