But the desire to look at the facts did.
Apognophos
JoinedPosts by Apognophos
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188
A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian
by cofty ina manual for creating atheists offers the first-ever guide not for talking people into faith--but for talking them out of it.
peter boghossian draws on the tools he has developed and used for more than twenty years as a philosopher and educator to teach how to engage the faithful in conversations that will help them value reason and rationality, cast doubt on their religious beliefs, mistrust their faith, abandon superstition and irrationality, and ultimately embrace reason.
- amazon.... "boghossian has provided an indispensible chart book for all of us who must navigate the rising sea of magical thinking that is inundating america today.
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55
Marriage In The New World
by Cold Steel inokay, here's the issue.
some people, even some jws, believe that in the new world they will be reunited with their spouses.
jesus, however, said that in the resurrection there would be no marriage or giving in marriage.
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Apognophos
Yes, this is a good example of how the earthly-life theology of JWs ties itself in knots. Obviously Jesus was referring to heavenly life after death, and any other attempted explanation is a joke.
One more point: What about married couples who would survive Armageddon? Do they have to divorce? I actually believed as a child that, yes, this scripture meant that all existing marriages would be annulled in the new system. It was the only logical conclusion I could come to. Why would some people get to be married forever in the new system just because they were alive when Armageddon happened, but all the resurrectees would have to be bachelors forever? Whereas if Jesus was referring to people going to heaven after death, then no one would be getting there without dying in order to become a spirit creature, therefore all would be in the same situation.
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188
A Manual for Creating Atheists by Peter Boghossian
by cofty ina manual for creating atheists offers the first-ever guide not for talking people into faith--but for talking them out of it.
peter boghossian draws on the tools he has developed and used for more than twenty years as a philosopher and educator to teach how to engage the faithful in conversations that will help them value reason and rationality, cast doubt on their religious beliefs, mistrust their faith, abandon superstition and irrationality, and ultimately embrace reason.
- amazon.... "boghossian has provided an indispensible chart book for all of us who must navigate the rising sea of magical thinking that is inundating america today.
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Apognophos
I don't think anyone was questioning that it would be a nice idea to teach people those things. But how do you do it? In my opinion, hope is all but lost if you don't teach these things to people in childhood. Get them early or they get way too engrained in a belief system to be able to reach. Yes, as adults we did change our beliefs after a while, but it took a long time and had to come from within. You can't reason someone else out of their faith. JWs and fundies in general are great examples of how people can blind themselves to facts that surround them.
BackseatDevil mentioned that people turn to religion for "answers" but let's not forget that people usually turn to God for personal help, not for broad philosophical answers to the problem of evil. We all feel overwhelmed sometimes, and if we can't turn to our parents for something, an imaginary father in the sky is a tempting recourse.
After that study recently found that more-educated people are less likely to be religious, one researcher cautioned that this didn't mean that "smarter = more skeptical", but rather that people who are well-educated are more likely to succeed in life, and thus feel less of a need for God. This tends to poke a big hole in the balloon of "creating an atheist through the power of going down a checklist of facts". You'd have to first show someone how they can succeed in life and quit their bad habits and overcome emotional turmoil without God. Then you could get around to the facts.
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How do JWs explain Egyptian society and culture surviving the flood?
by BU2B inok this is something have been wondering.
has anyone heard any explanation from jws as to how egypt, which even the wt admits existed 4600 years ago, was eliminated by a global flood but resumed a few short years later with the same culture, language etc.
the pyramids are older than the wt date for the flood.
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Apognophos
I'd actually question whether that's still the official stance. I don't believe you'll find a quote to that effect without going back decades in the literature (no later than the '80s, I'd say). Also, the Society has made more recent symbolic application of the relevant scriptures, saying that the "wolf will lie down with the lamb" in the sense of formerly dangerous people living peacefully aside the meek ones in the new system.
You know, people here often divide JW beliefs into one of two categories, old and new light, but I think there's a third category, "moldy light". It's light that has been left in the back of the fridge for a long time and no one in the Writing Department or Governing Body wants to acknowledge it, hoping that it will go away on its on. Besides vegetarian carnivores, another example would be the restrictions on oral and anal sex. Elders might still act as if these are current teachings, but the Society hasn't touched that subject for a while, to my knowledge.
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People okay with being mind controlled/brainwashed?
by Joliette ini have actually heard of people saying that they are okay with being brainwashed and/or mind controlled?
does this make sense to you guys?.
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Apognophos
Actually, yes! But it's a good question.
- People who join the army want to be brainwashed by their basic training in order to be unified, efficient soldiers. They give the drill instructor the authority to remake them as hardened fighters (all the more so with advanced training such as for the Marines).
- People who sense that they are worthless or dangerous want someone to remake their thinking so they can be healthy, valuable to society, and to restrict them from hurting others. The reformed spree killer Matthew Lamb is a good example of this, as he chose to go from from psychiatric care into a private army in order to make sure he was in a controlled environment, so as to manage his psychopathy.
- People who want to fit into society allow others to tell them what to like and dislike. For instance, if you are American like me, you probably have a negative reaction to the word "communism". Why? Because you've studied it carefully and know its shortcomings? Or from conditioning that came from the government so that we would know who our enemy was (back when the enemy was considered to be communism)?
In that sense, being social animals, we all allow ourselves to be brainwashed to a certain degree. But people with low self-esteem or serious personal problems are more likely to allow a higher-level mind control group like the JWs to mold them into something that they think is more worthy and valuable. Remember how as JWs we always used to make comments about how we are imperfect sinners, and how God gives us undeserved kindness?
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breakup guilt
by fresh prince of ohio ini recently broke up with my girlfriend of four years.. she is 40 years old, with health problems, financial problems, little family/friend support, and facing an uncertain future.
i gave her some money.. the guilt i am experiencing right now is absolutely anguishing.
she had very, very high hopes about our relationship and loved me very deeply.
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Apognophos
I'm curious, do you think that she needs you more than you need her, vice versa, or is the level of need the same going both ways? Because you originally made it sound like she was going to be lost without you, but then you talked to her and you said she sounded okay, and now you're the one falling apart, even though nothing bad has happened to her (at least that you've stated here).
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7 things we probably should not stop thinking about
by Terry inbelieve what we will, we still live in the real world and what happens to us proceeds from confrontations unavoidable.. the christian scientist can die from an illness which (to him) does not exist.. the hindu can starve to death in a pasture full of sacred cattle.. the jehovah's witness can sell his house and pioneer full time as he tears the pages from his 1975 calendar in exasperation.. and many is the parent who prays for mercy over the child who dies.. to think or not think is our choice.
the content of our thought can be real or illusory.
the progress report comes at the end of each day as we lie in bed and count the costs of our beliefs.. .
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Apognophos
Your challenge "Give me an example of a Watchtower teaching that is unique to the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society that is demonstrably TRUE" reminds me of the phrase:
"What is true is not new, and what is new is not true."
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Comprehensive NWT Comparison Project (calling all technically skilled members)
by Apognophos inis anyone aware if this project is already being done by someone?
if not, perhaps we can brainstorm how to go about this, now that the pdf for the revised nwt is out.
a couple initial impressions:.
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Apognophos
Terry: Well, there's a few different things going on here, but they were all just tangential to getting the text of the Bible into a format that we could perform comparisons on, which text is already available to anyone who wants to download the Society's PDF of the Bible or read it online. I assume the hack you are referring to is MMM figuring out the PUB format used for the JW Library's NWT. This is only primarily useful for getting that text in a format that we needed it to be in, however if the WT Library CD-ROM's files are in the same format, this would allow us to rip that text too.
I only see this as potentially useful for posting online the older publications that are in public domain. One site I found provides scanned images of the public domain literature, which would benefit from having plain-text companion versions because they cannot be searched. That being said, I think that there are probably plain-text versions out there, since I see members here posting text from pre-1950 literature. So, in short, there's probably no direct benefit to the community from any of the work so far :-)
The key is now taking the Bible texts and making a comparison in the way that people want to see it, which includes straining out the more interesting changes from the boring ones. I'm open to suggestions from everyone on how they would want to read the list of changes, keeping in mind that we can't distribute the full Bible texts. At this point I'm thinking the final product will probably be a word-processing document, or a separate document for each kind of change, which lists the verses that changed. Although I will attempt to give the reader a headstart by screening out minor changes, it will ultimately be up to the reader to determine how significant a change is. For instance, a moved comma could be minor, or incredibly significant ("Truly I tell you today...").
No matter the format, I don't see the average ex-JW being able to quickly scan through a list of changes generated by our work, and getting any benefit. Being that the Bible is a complex subject, it will take someone with understanding ("Let the reader use discernment!") to grasp what changes are important and to then tell others about them. For instance, Jeffro has already looked at the scriptures in the revised NWT that concern the 70-year prophecy to see if anything important changed; it takes specialized knowledge to understand whether a change in one of those verses is significant. So in that sense, the product of this work will probably have to undergo a trickle-down effect of gradual analysis by individual readers before the average member of the forum learns anything interesting.
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Comprehensive NWT Comparison Project (calling all technically skilled members)
by Apognophos inis anyone aware if this project is already being done by someone?
if not, perhaps we can brainstorm how to go about this, now that the pdf for the revised nwt is out.
a couple initial impressions:.
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Apognophos
Cool. We might be able to use that patch file approach, though as you said, we'll have to fiddle with it to get the right results. I'd like to try a few things, would you mind providing the verse text files to me privately (since it's copyrighted material)? I guess they shouldn't be too big if they are zipped together. I'd like to experiment with diffing, and grouping the diffs by kind, and seeing how reader-friendly I can make it.
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TRUE LOVE
by ADJUSTMENTS inever since i've learned ttatt the love for my wife, df'd family, worldly family and people in general has become more real!
it's like there is no one telling me who and how to love it just comes naturally with real true love!!!
also i've seen that i have become less depressed and have actualy started tolose weight!
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Apognophos
We had a part on the last Service Meeting about all the love and unity that JWs supposedly have. In 15 minutes, I didn't hear one good example of either of those traits in the religion. The brother who did the part is always rather clueless, but he actually had me questioning whether he even understood the meaning of the words "love" and "unity".