Posts by Gamaliel

8

Bethlehem birth prophecy?

by peacefulpete in

the following excerpt is from and article by till at the infidels website.

the idea that gospel authors fudged ot passages to appear to be prophecies is nothing new but this thought was to me significant.

many times i have read that the author of matthew was compelled to add the birth narrative, as it is not in the earlier mark, to compete with the mystery cults birth stories and to add prestige to his main charactor by having him be born in the "city of david".

Gamaliel

peacefulpete,

Very good information. Matthew is the only NT writer, who although writing in Greek, seems to have a couple quotes and several phrases that tend to the Hebrew/Aramaic rather than the Greek and Greek LXX that he used everywhere else. There are some interesting attempts at explaining this, which I'd love to discuss later.

That said, I don't see how the LXX makes such a big difference here. Apparently, even though really skilled LXX-literate Christians could probably have turned any combination of verses from the LXX into an "obvious" Messianic prophecy. The LXX was believed to be the Oracle about Jesus. Everything in it predicted Jesus at some level. But this particular verse would easily have been a "Level One" Messianic prophecy even to the most unskilled literate Christian. The reason is that it referred to Bethlehem and it wouldn't matter whether it was a clan or a village. In fact, that particular Bethlehem was identified with David's city. (Although a similar name would have been enough.)

Just to quote a few of those verses that mention Bethlehem with Ephrathah, I put them below. In fact, I think these were such obvious prophecies that this is why Matthew used the story that put Jesus birth in Bethlehem even though Mark didn't know about it and Luke doesn't have him born there.

1 Chron 2:50

These were the sons of Caleb the son of Hur, the firstborn of Ephratah; Shobal the father of Kirjathjearim, Salma the father of Bethlehem, Hareph the father of Bethgader.

1 Chron 4:4

And Penuel the father of Gedor, and Ezer the father of Hushah. These [are] the sons of Hur, the firstborn of Ephratah, the father of Bethlehem.

1 Sam 17:12 Now David [was] the son of that Ephrathite of Bethlehem judah, whose name [was] Jesse; and he had eight sons: and the man went among men [for] an old man in the days of Saul.

Ruth 4:11

And all the people that [were] in the gate, and the elders, said, [We are] witnesses. The LORD make the woman that is come into thine house like Rachel and like Leah, which two did build the house of Israel: and do thou worthily in Ephratah, and be famous in Bethlehem:

Psalm 132:5

Until I find out a place for the LORD, an habitation for the mighty [God] of Jacob. [6] Lo, we heard of it at Ephratah: we found it in the fields of the wood.

Gamaliel

22

God's Appearances in the Old Testament

by hooberus in

"and the lord appeared unto him in the plains of mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; and he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground, and said, my lord, if now i have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, i pray thee, from thy servant: let a little water, i pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:" genesis 18:1-4. comment: the lord (hebrew yhwh) appeared in the form of a man with feet to abraham.. .

and upon the nobles of the children of israel he laid not his hand: also they saw god, and did eat and drink.

" exodus 24:9-11 .

Gamaliel

YHWH's butt

"And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy. And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen." Exodus 33:18-23

comment: Though Moses and others could see God in the form of a man and live, they could not see God in his absolute glory and live.

Just funnin' with ya there, hoob'rus..............

But for anyone who wonders the word is

Psalm 78:66 And he smote his enemies in the hinder parts: he put them to a perpetual reproach.

2 Chr 4:4 It stood upon twelve oxen, three looking toward the north, and three looking toward the west, and three looking toward the south, and three looking toward the east: and the sea [was set] above upon them, and all their hinder parts [were] inward.

Gamaliel

10

WAS IT JEHOVAH'S BLESSING???

by jst2laws in

.

i had a really unique experience today that i want to share but will have to give you a little of my story first.

i hope you find it interesting.

Gamaliel

My sister was pioneering, had only a part time job and couldn't afford a needed vacuum cleaner. She 'prayed on it' (tm) (and asked around for one) and what-da-ya-know, a sista gave her a vacuum. "It was Jeehovers blessing" she proudly proclaimed to me.

That's because it was probably only "GE or Hoover's" blessing. Only when prophets are again known as seers, "Kenmore" be revealed about whether this was truly a blessing, or if her friend was just sucking up.

Gamaliel

(Didn't Jesus tell a parable of the "widow's mite" where she vacuumed her house all day, and found dust mites in the bag when she was emptying it?)

25

My Very Easy Method Just Speeds Up Naming Planets

by Englishman in

my..........very..... easy.. method ..just.... speeds... up.........naming... planets.

mercury ..venus... earth.. mars ....jupiter .saturn.... uranus... neptune.. pluto .

..and in the correct order from the sun!.

Gamaliel

I think the color indigo was just made up so that people could pronounce the "rainbow" mnemonic "Roy G. Biv" (otherwise Roy's last name would have been just Bv). (red, orange, yellow, green, blue, [indigo,] violet)

Doesn't everyone learn the spaces and lines for the musical notes on the G Clef with "FACE" and "Every Good Boy Does Fine"? The F Bass Clef was "All Cows Eat Grass" "Good Boys Do Fine Always." (There are even some "gay" variations on the last one.)

I hear that medical students have dozens of these that people have worked out over the years.

My absolute favorite mnemonic was one I learned from Harry Lorraine's (and Jerry Lucas') memory book, that replaced numbers with consonants, by which I still know many of my friends phone numbers, pi to 20 places, and which allowed a pioneer buddy and me to work out an amazing card trick where we flipped the card too fast for anyone to see what it was, but we could still identify the card because we'd say things like: Ready? ....flip.... OK, here comes the next one....flip... You'll never get this....flip... All, right this one will even be faster than the last one...flip...

(Of course those were the 4 of diamonds, the 7 of clubs, ace of spades, and 5 of hearts, respectively)

Then there's French verb tricks like: DR & MRS VAN DER TRAMPP which represents all the major French verbs that need the helping verb être rather than avoir. ( devenir, revenir, mo urir, retourner, sortir, venir, aller, na ître, descendre, entrer, rentrer, tomber, rester, arriver, monter, partir, passer)

And lots more I can't remember right now.

Gamaliel

25

WT Says Demons Kill Children for Revenge!

by Funchback in

9/1/1987 watchtower, 'spritism-why the growing interest?

spiritism-how viewed by god?.

i called: "jehovah!

Gamaliel

CALAMITY struck my family when I was a girl of 14. At that time, a vicious murderer began to eliminate my relatives. His first victims were my sister’s children—all nine of them. Then he turned against her husband. Shortly thereafter, he killed one of my sisters too. Four more of my brothers and sisters followed, until only my mother and I were left. Oh, was I frightened!

During the years that followed, I ate, worked, and slept in daily dread. I wondered: ‘When will he strike? And who will be next—Mother or I?’

Quite odd. Although the "story" blames the "enemies of the family" for sending the "demon" I wouldn't completely discount the possibility that the mother or Lintina herself were responsible for the murders. You'll please excuse me for reading between the lines of this story. She's been baptized for at least 11 years now, admits to health problems that have not gone completely away, admits to having gone out of her mind. ("I stopped eating and had moments when I completely lost my mind.") And now that she's been stable for a few years, and is about 70 years old the Wt felt safe including her story. I bet the Wt wouldn't have risked printing this story only a couple years after her baptism. (or until the claims had "aged" a bit.)

I'm not ridiculing the story, but I guess I should explain my biases for any who still believe in such things. I'm sure there have been plenty of better theories about demons, but before I go researching it, here's mine: (probably re-stating the obvious)

I realize that in some countries even adults are still expected to see demons, but in the US and in countries where Science and Reason supposedly reign over superstitious religions, girls of 14 still seem to be the commonest victims of seeing and/or hearing "demons." When I was becoming a teenager In Missouri, even in our congregation, belief in ghosts and demons was very prevalent, and the teenage girls always had stories that began when they were about age 12 or 13. (Only a very few sisters could continue seeing or hearing after their teenage years, and by then many had dismissed it as due to their mental state when they were younger.) Even now, all over the USA, the biggest buyers of the "Fear Street" series of books (child-oriented "horror" stories) have always been girls within a year of their first menstruation. Some of the most successful scary movies like Exorcist and Poltergeist obviously play on the fact that teenage girls are the most likely objects of demon interest. The entire Horror movie genre plays strongly on the idea that teenage girls are more vulnerable to demons and teenage boys will ostensibly play a role as protectors of these girls, in spite of their own fears. This plays out both in the paying audience and on the screen.

The relationship between the hormones of sexuality and demons must be obvious. Encounters with "demons", I suspect, are the psychological catalysts of hormonal chemistry, unresolved mixture of fear, guilt, loathing, pleasure and pressure of sexuality, and, of course, violence-evoking images and associations of menses. Females and their male demons are at the core of the Salem witch hunts, the Nephilim stories of Genesis, the phallic imagery of riding broomsticks, probably even Paul's comments about why sisters should cover their heads on account of the angels. It's definitely true of the story of Lintina too. (Notice, btw, how she's been having several children of her own who have grown up [and survived?!?!] during these last 26 years, but with no distracting talk of a husband.)

I was 14 years old when he set out on his deadly mission. Twenty-six years later, only Mother and I were left.

...and her own kids were also left, she forgets to mention. This girl, in a country that accepts demons as more natural than supernatural -- and beginning at an age when demons might have been most apt to strike HER, completely dissociates herself from fear of this demon from age 14 through 40. ("When I wanted to flee, Mother cried again. So for her sake I stayed and endured my first shivering encounter with this killer. I was 40 years old.") When her mother finally dies (at least age 58 based on number of kids) she now admits/begins her own struggles with this demon and finally frees herself at age 58.

First the demon troubled me only when I was going to sleep. As I was about to doze off, the voice would awaken me, talking about burial places and death. Losing sleep made me feel weak, although I continued caring for my children. Later the demon stepped up his attacks. Several times I felt as if he were strangling me. Though I tried to run away, I could not because a heavy weight seemed to press on my body. I wanted to scream but could not produce a sound.

How many of those vicious murders in the family (starting when she was 14) were from strangling and suffocation at night, I wonder? How long before such a string of suspicious murders would bring the attention of law enforcement in other countries?

Upon recuperating after each attack, I resumed farming, growing cassava and sugarcane and selling them at the market in a small coastal town. It became easier to make a living, but my worst sufferings were ahead.

Don't miss the financial subplot. It appears several times. (Her mother's hard work, her own hard work, her need to care for her own children, the $8,000 in payments to the witch doctors, and of course the "piece de resistance"...

My son in the Netherlands did not believe the stories he had heard about me and boarded a plane for Suriname to see for himself. He was so happy to see me healthy that he bought a fine house for me in the capital, where I now live. What a change I have experienced—from a penniless slave of demons to a well-cared-for servant of Jehovah!

I think it's just another ironic case of appreciating how well Jehovah is caring for her because an unbelieving relative is footing the bill. This was the same son, obviously, about whom she had written:

One of my sons, who lives in the Netherlands, sent me money to continue the search for help. So I went to a medical doctor in the capital.

So the son who moved to the Netherlands realizes that there are sometimes "chemical" reasons people act crazy. (Hard to miss this fact in Amsterdam.) So he tries to get her to see a medical doctor rather than witch doctors.

But then I did something I had never done before. I called: "Jehovah! Jehovah!" That is all I knew to say. And the demon left!

Oh, yes! I almost forgot about the old JW incantation for do-it-yourself exorcisms.

Slowly my strength came back. When my son returned, I told him to wait outside. I dressed and tucked a blouse into my skirt to show that the swelling was almost gone. Then I walked outside. From the moment I could walk a bit...

Why no sudden, complete cures as with Jesus' exorcisms? And how scientific is this proof of reduced swelling? Was it the same size skirt, same size blouse by which she measured the swelling before. What are her eating habits now? Does she have massive fibroid cysts? Could she have miscarried at age 40?

When I reached my hut and opened the door, someone yelled: "Pingos!" (Wild hogs!) A herd was crossing the island and jumping into the river to swim across.

Sounds suspiciously like the ending to another demon story in the Gospels. Pigs in a river...I say: HOGWASH!

Eleven years after my baptism, I have even more reason to be grateful. Moved by the many blessings I received, three of my children and one son-in-law also became interested in Bible truth and eventually dedicated their lives to Jehovah God.

So she's happily rearranged her superstions and even brought a couple of her own kids into her new superstitions. Fortunately, that old demon who was once out to get every relative, even the kids, doesn't care about her or her kids any more after that time she said "Jehovah, Jehovah."

There's an eerie irony in the fact that this demon spent 26 years killing everyone in her family except for her and her kids. Another 17 years attacking just her. But once she became a JW, the demon didn't care any more about her or her kids. It's as if the demon said... OK, I would've killed all of them, but at least I got them into theocratic hell (aka "spiritual paradise") for the rest of their lives...I guess my work is done here.

Gamaliel

55

College and EX-JW Discontent....Questions and Stats

by teenyuck in

jw
friends

*many* ex-jws say that they were robbed of an education due to the wtbts and as a result, they feel that their families and the wt screwed up their life by depriving them of the opportunity to go to college and therefore, earn a high salary at a job they love.

here is a link to the us census which shows that approximately 26% of the us population graduates college.

page 5, towards the bottom, shows the college graduation stats.

Gamaliel

Thoughts and comments would be greatly appreciated. If you had a scholarship offer, please provide details....what college was it at, what discipline/acedemic area was to be studied, etc.

I hesitated to answer in this thread because I think these threads make it sound like the pro-college crowd are somehow bragging about their own abilities. I hope I don't come across that way, because I hope everyone who can make college happen will take the chance, no matter how late in life. For me, not going to college was suffocating.

I think I would have gone to college for several reasons:

1. My father was respectful of college* and secretly wished we kids had gone. 1975 rhetoric let Pioneering win, though. I was still 15 when I quit HS to pioneer, but Dad made me take the GED first. I loved school, and had teachers begging me to come back. My art teacher even gave me over $1000 worth of canvasses, paints, and brushes.

2. I was at the top of my HS sophomore class of 217 when I quit school, had already received awards, and was assured that scholarships would have been forthcoming.

3. I always secretly envied my father's university job. He had just enough college to land a semi-teaching position at a major University. (in Electrical Engineering). Not enough for an official "professorship," but people still called him "Doctor ___" because, with an honorary degree, he ran the University's "invention laboratories" and created projects for the honor's students. He kept the job for 20 years or so until retirement.)

4. Found myself really missing school while pioneering. I started enough Bible Studies with college students to make my 100 hours purely on Bible Studies. (Unfortunately, several were baptized.) But I would still go visit my father's labs and the huge university library after most days of pioneering, and 20 hours of "secular" work.

5. When I got to Bethel, little mattered to me but starting a reading program that was to include every one of the Society's publications. My plan was to read forward from 1870's and intersperse with the books from the 1970's, working backwards. (I also managed to become study partners for a month with a Gilead student, when her roommate left.)

6. When I left Bethel to get married, my wife, who had put herself though school (2 Master's Degrees: Linguistics and Education), thought I would be happier if I went to college, too.

7. I was fortunate to still be fairly young when college was recommended because I could still ace the SAT-based college entrant's exam, which I had never taken before. (I would have graduated HS in 1975 but started college less than 6 years after that, so not all my high school learning was gone from memory yet.)

8. I also managed to test through almost 18% of my college credits and allowed to skip prerequisites courses for several classes. Quite a bit of that was based on Bethel art experience, knowledge of history, religious studies -- even stuff I had learned by living two doors down from the Gilead library at Bethel. Majored in Computer Science.

9. I didn't need scholarships to get through college. I took a bank job temporarily to get a low rate college loan, and went to Financial Aid office and got some mileage out of my previous two years "wages" at Bethel. To put myself through college, I had to give up a fairly good post-Bethel job I had just started and had to take a $10 dollar an hour job running computer operations at night which really translated to 10% real work and 90% homework.

10. For good measure I thought I would also give my brother's experience. (He was valedictorian in 8th grade "graduation") He also gave up college for Bethel, got a union electrician's job, but after several years, still went to college, not to change careers, but just to enjoy the kinds of learning that are promoted in college. It's a whole new world for those of us who were stifled since birth by "so great a crowd of witlessness."

Well, it looks like I did do a lot of bragging up there, but I don't feel like doing a "humility" edit right now. The post is too long to go through again. My apologies.

Gamaliel

41

The New World Translation

by MrsQ in

jw
friends

can anyone give me an explanation of how the nw translation came about?

who, exactly, were on this bible translation committee, and what were their qualifications?

when was it first published?.

Gamaliel

scholar,

I would have thought that the question as to whether the method for calculating 596/587 and 539 is rather a stupid one because if you have to ask that question then I cnnot but wonder about your state of knowledge about chronology.

No problem. I wanted to start with a clean slate, to try to figure out how YOU, a scholarly JW would suggest that we arrive at proof or evidence of 539BCE. But I'm glad I finally read through the references. For years while pioneering even I just kind of accepted that JW chronology was right. My first year at Bethel, I realized that something was wrong. At Bethel, because I started reading Russell, I noticed that the 2,520 years were also used for the time of ISRAEL's "desolation" in 721 BCE to reach to 1799, the last days, which began then because of Napolean. A second 2,520 years was used to prove that Armageddon would happen around 1914. (During the time I was reading the old lit, it was clear I had already found about 15 "lies" in the "ka" book we were using for the Book Study, so I didn't need any specifics on chronology to know that it had very little chance of being correct.)

Firstly, the society has well explained why and how 539 is widely accepted by historians and scholars.

I thought the Aid book was too vague, but I now have it from finally from the Insight book.

The calculation and secular evidence is as I have stated in numerous publications. I would suggest that you get pencel and paper and take good notes and record these in a journal. Now, your next step is to determine how 586/587 is reckoned, its method and the specific evidence used for thes dates. Write this material in your journal and compare your findings. Do the same with 607 and now in your journal pade you will have three parallel columns and then you will see the difference and points of agreement.

This was an excellent idea. I'm not being facetious. It's exactly what I needed to do.

For starters, 539 has direct secular evidence and the biblical narrative to support this date as the fall of Babylon,

We must have a different view of "direct secular evidence." Why do you call it "direct"?

the fall of Jerusalem also has many scriptures which fo[retol]d? and described the event similar to Babylons. fall.

The Bible also mentions which year(s) in the reign of Nebuchadnezzar that Jerusalem fell, so if you trust the Bible, we could tie it to the same secular evidence, couldn't we?

The main difference between the fall of both cities is that there is no direct secular evidence for Jerusalem as there is with Babylon. The fall of Jerusalem can only be calculated with scripture only with a secular fixed date which is not the same with the calculation of Bavylon.

Now I'm not sure whether you yourself have ever tried your 3 column notebook experiment. You are right when you say that a secular source actually refers directly to the fall of Babylon, (but it doesn't give a year) I guess you are saying that no similar secular source refers directly to the fall of Jerusalem. But Jer 52:12 says: On the tenth day of the fifth month, in the nineteenth year of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, Nebuzaradan commander of the imperial guard, who served the king of Babylon, came to Jerusalem, so we really just have to see if we can find the 19th year of Nebuchadnezzar, in the same way we find the 1st year? Also we have similar evidences all mentioned in Insight but also on this site: (Lachish letters, Babylonian chronicle, Jehoiakin seal, Eliakim seal, Gedaliah)

http://www.bible-history.com/map_babylonian_captivity/map_of_the_deportation_of_judah_archaeology_and_the_babylonian_captivity.html

Note their translation of the Babylonian Chronicles with respect to the intial invasion of Jerusalem, not the one that destroyed the Temple:

"In the seventh month (of Nebuchadnezzar-599 BC.) in the month Chislev (Nov/Dec) the king of Babylon assembled his army, and after he had invaded the land of Hatti (Syria/Palestine) he laid seige to the city of Judah. On the second day of the month of Adara ( 16th of March) he conquered the city and took the king (Jehoiachin) prisoner. He installed in his place a king (Zedekiah) of his own choice, and after he had received rich tribute, he sent (them) forth to Babylon."

In short, it is only the fall of Babylon that that has an independent chronological base.

I can't agree. The fact that Nebuchadnezzar, above, is tied "secularly" to the attack on "the city of Judah" that took Jehoiachin is just as close chronologically, to the chronological base for Cyrus taking Babylon.

In each case, the actual years are not calculated directly. In Cyrus' case (according to the Insight book) it's "a Babylonian clay tablet [which] contains ... astronomical information...[about lunar eclipses tied to the 7th year of Cambyses]. "SInce the seventh year of Cambyses II began in the spring of 523 BCE, his first year of rule was 529 and his accession year was 530" Then we have to know that Cambyses II was the (son and) immediate successor of Cyrus II. Then, according to the Insight book, we must rely on the fact that no clay tablets have been found that are dated anytime after Cyrus II's 9th year. Then we assume that, if his 9th year was his last, and was 530 then his first year was 538 and his succession year must have been 539. (Scholar, does that methodology sound vaguely similar to the way Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year is determined? What's the difference?)

For this reason the fall of Jerusalem is not regardeda as a absolute or pivtal date as with the fall of Babylon in 539. Also, this is the reason why scholars cannot determine whether it is 586 or 587 for Jerusalem' fall. The society under the guidance of holy spirit and holy writ has determined that 607 is the only possible choice and we can all thank Jehovah and his Son for this amazing understabding.

Now it is very clear that we are relying on exactly the same types of evidence for Cyrus 1st year as we use to rely on Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year. If one is pivotal, and we have as many lines of independent evidence leading to it, then the other is pivotal too. Saying scholars cannot determine if Jerusalem fell in 586 or 587 is silly. Would you say that Jerusalem fell in the 18th year of Nebuchadnezzar or the 19th? If you pick the 19th then your silly argument goes away, because scholars do know Nebuchadnezzar's 19th year using the same lines of evidence they use for Cyrus' 1st year.

It's only if you have no respect for the choices of years the Bible offers for this event that you could still say 607 is more established than 586 or 587. So scholar, what did you think I was going to find? Can you still not answer the question correctly? What types of evidence are used for 539 that are truly different that the types of evidence used for establishing 586?

Gamaliel

4

Watchtower is DocLine Subscriber

by Amazing in

jw
friends

.

this is not a wow necessarily ... but it shows the watchtower id for this service.

http://nnlm.gov/mar/perspec/2000/0004.pdf (see page 2 of 8 box shows watchtower)

Gamaliel

Tends to provide them with cover for the reasons they gave on the UN scandal. (Just doing everything we can, they'll say, to get access to important information to share with our readers.)

If they have a "health sciences mission" they're elibible. Maybe they just want facts and figures on how many JWs have certifiable mental health problems. They could figure out what kinds of pharmaceuticals to add to the foods served at Bethel that are shipped in from Watchtower Pharms.

Gamaliel

64

Subliminal Images in Watchtower Literature

by BornAgainGirl! in

subliminal images in watchtower stuff:.

http://watchtower.observer.org/apps/pbcs.dll/section?category=subliminalimages and there are many more than this.. what i want to know is - why?

what purposes do these images serve?

Gamaliel

I haven't the foggiest. At first I thought it was from an artist I remember named Dave who dated a girl named Daisy Ann in his congregation and wanted to send her a message but she was afraid he'd get in trouble: (Hi Dave! if you're reading this!)

JDubs Eventually See Through These Unusually Placed Subliminals?

They Have Rarely Understood. Daisy Ann, I Love You.

JEST TUPS

THRU DAILY

If I were to support it as a subliminal I'd think it means JUST PUT THROUGH DAILY and the sense a JW would get might be "To get through [the daily grind of being a JW] just put in your hours, your attendance, your service, and you won't need the distractions of R Rated movies.

But I don't see it as a subliminal, I think the artist may have asked about a couple of non-descript movie titles and even a simple example could potentially be linked to an existing movie or even promote what they really didn't intend: an R-rated guessing game about what the words might have meant. So to nullify the problem they probably thought of things like: OPEN TUES, THUR, FRIDAY or maybe the original photo he was working from had a marquis that said JUST $5.00 TUES THRU THURSDAY, but that would still fail to make a point that the movies themselves are bad. So they decided on changing a couple letters or making nonsense words that DIDN"T link to any ideas and I think they did a pretty good job.

I'm quite sure this didn't help.

Gamaliel

17

Do family/relatives still hound you about going back? what do they/you say?

by run dont walk in

jw
friends

no lie 10 years after i left, my family still thinks i'm coming back one day, get a grip, the last conversation i had, i kinda lost it a bit with my mom, and more or less said why would i go back, when russell/rutherford made everything up as they went along.

well that was a conversation stopper, and my brother/sister called alittle while back, i mentioned the un thing, child abuse scandals, and a few other things, i am not kidding, they pretended that they new nothing and that these things probaly never happened, just the media making up stories, how do you reason with that ???

i said :" well don't take their word for it, investigate yourself so you know, and read the entire watchtower history 1879-2003, read it yourself, if you are not willing to then shut up !

Gamaliel

Both my Mom and Dad used to ask for a while. (Dad's a mellowing Elder and Mom's a zealous Pioneer type, but they've both gone back into the work-force when they should be retiring -- or sitting under a vine and fig tree under different circumstances.)

I always tell them directly that I think if Dad knew what I now know about the Witnesses, he would definitely leave and never come back, but I always add that I still think my Mom would try to keep believing and would stick with it. I say I'd love to tell them all the reasons why I could never go back, but they would have to be very serious about knowing the whole story and have to be prepared for some very difficult issues between themselves and among their other JW friends and relatives.

I say it this way because they never know which of them I'm insulting. Also it reminds them that they do not know all my reasons even though they guess at a couple of them but never let me explain or discuss more than a tiny fraction before cutting me off. It lets them know just how serious the decision to leave is to me. It reminds them that they could be in my shoes, also getting hurt by other JWs the same way that they shunned me completely for years.

I'm reconsidering my would-be prediction though, considering how I think my Mom would react if she no longer could dismiss pedophile issues, direct dishonesty and cover ups from top levels, UN involvement, etc. etc.. My father has already seen through a lot and keeps it to himself with some idea that it's like a spiritually-oriented "social" club that he thinks is the one most blessed by Jehovah. (But he seems to be losing the idea that God will harshly judge all the rest of mankind.) Years ago, my father was a lot more adamant about the chronology, but he can't easily ignore the fact that he's been exposed to my prediction that the WTS would change the generation a year before it finally happened and then he's had his mother die -- although they were all so sure they'd survive into the "New System." Also he's taught at universities and has been exposed to some of the most challenging arguments when he tried to "witness" to colleagues.

Perhaps it would really end up in the reverse direction (she leaves, he stays) now that they've found their own ways to deal with their own JW issues over the years. They might get even more curious if they ask again and I tell them I'm updating my prediction.

Gamaliel