Posts by Gamaliel

501

Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

having problem pasting this...

Gamaliel

Tom,

Since I worked in Photoplate for a few years and did several pieces of art for the Art Department, I'd have to concur with you. Granted there may have been some artists before I was there or after I left who managed to slip something in to make their mark, but I never saw it attempted on purpose from 1977 to 1980. And I think it would have been even more difficult in the following years after 1980. They still had some of the same people behind the the cameras for years after I was there, and I know how difficult it would have been to slip something like this past Brother Robinson or ANY of the others for that matter. (By camera, I mean the cameras that took pictures of original artwork to ultimately create printing plates for the presses.)

When I used to post more often on this site, I wrote up my feelings about it here:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/56369/827656/post.ashx#827656

I believe it was David Taciak I was talking to (also in Photoplate at the time) who joked with me about a certain artist at 124 who might have been crazy enough to try putting his initials, or some other form of signature, on a piece of art. (David finally got transferred from Photoplate to a permanent position in the Art Dept.) But as I mention in the link above, it was more trouble to keep accidental "subliminals" OUT of the artwork. We'd often see something that came too close to looking like a face in a bush or cloud, or the smear of erasures that didn't "drop out" as well as the artists hoped. We'd often have to shoot something 10 times on the camera to avoid places where we suspected the final print was going to have unrealistic looking water reflections, or shadows that were too strong, or the like. We were pretty good, but sometimes the artist would sometimes see something on the proof that we missed, and sometimes they'd redo it, or we'd touch up the art for them.

In reality, very few of the artists were actually very good at folds in cloth and clothing, or folds in the skin of a hand or wrinkled brow. When an artist is drawing, they will often see a face forming in the cloud and redo it. Even a photograph that might be copied for a picture can have branches making swastikas, and crosses, or clouds that look like a fist "flipping a bird" and the artist is sometimes aware of these problems in a graphic or photograph and UNDOES these things in the art even where the original innocent photograph accidentally created them. (Photos are sometimes too perfect, and don't look natural enough without changes.) But that doesn't mean the artist is going to catch all the subtle things that can show up in his final art AT ALL ANGLES. Some bored person at the Watchtower Study is going to scrutinize a picture from upside-down or sideways and see a face that the artist didn't catch, or a "NINA" in someone's hair.

Also, we were always trying to get used to how the new printing methods were going to treat color and shadow. And then sometimes you guys would just lay the ink on too thick (lol) and it was unpredictable.

I think that a lot of people don't realize that the mind is pre-wired to pick out faces from the surroundings and certain "out of place" objects, shapes and edges - even if these differencxes are extremely subtle. Too many straight lines in nature will jar the mind and make us conjure up a man-made object. Even babies are psychologically wired to pick up on the slightest variations in faces. Everyone sees a man in the moon. Animals with honed hunting instincts have extremely keen senses for picking out "edges" that don't belong: such as fur among leaves, eyes hiding behind bushes. And there have been numerous studies of how the human mind will automatically get tricked to fill in white spaces with imaginary "suggested" edges.

I haven't given much thought to why so many people tend to find "demonic" images. But faces tend to be unavoidable, and especially the ones that are missed in quality control will often be distorted and therefore might naturally look demonic. It's almost a cliche that a frightened, restless child can see a few extra claws and scary faces in the shadows and branches of a tree scratching near his window after the lights go out. Perhaps it's somewhat analagous that those who now see the dark and scary side of the Watchtower will, therefore, pick up on a few more of these problems in Watchtower artwork, even if it's no more purposeful than those random scratchings of branches through the glass, darkly.

Greg

501

Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

having problem pasting this...

Gamaliel

gymbob,

I also started in 76.

Pete Coconis sounds familiar, or was there someone else with a name more like Pete Baconi?

Rarely played basketball. But I went down there a couple times. I remember they put up a couple of bowling lanes but they weren't very popular because you had to set the pins up manually.

Funny about the ink bucket falling on you "out of the blue" like that. Sounds like a slap-stick comedy scene. Or what's that music group, The Blue Man Group that let's the drums splatter paint all over them?

I somehow got in good with Albert Schroeder for a while and got assigned to give some Gilead group tours in Manhattan. My most memorable experience was taking them to St Patrick's Church in mid-Manhattan, and then finding that there was always one or two who were afraid to go inside.

Greg

501

Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

having problem pasting this...

Gamaliel

gymbob,

I really liked Peach. And I know what you mean about how he "should be here". Maybe some people are happier as JWs, but there are so many that you'd just about die for to set them free. I really liked Anita Berazza, too. Very pleasant. One of those voices that always brings a hapy feeling.

Her brother Reuben was in my wedding party along with RMangels (Computer Dept), and Warren, of course. Reuben was my first good friend at Bethel. We started in the Bindery together (Anselm Packnett's area). We came into Bethel at about the same time. First we practiced tempting the jaws of the "Smasher" with our fingers 5,000 times a week for two weeks, then an end-sheet gluer for another two weeks, then I went off to try to set the best productions records since 1927 for the 50th anniversary of a cantankerous cover-maker. (Still remember the noxious smell of Noxon I used daily to shine up that beautiful old machine.)

I got transferred out of the bindery too early for softball, but someone already told me your pitching story. Sydlik could always mix likeable qualities with an ego. My first couple of winters, we brought skis and sleds to run down the hill by Squbb and pulled ourselves back up with a rope. For skiing, I later learned that the Sierra Nevadas has a slight edge over Brooklyn.

When were you there?

Greg

119

Rutherford Exposed: The Story of Berta and Bonnie (redux)

by Leolaia in

in september 2004, farkel posted an article on this forum called "rutherford exposed: the story of berta and bonnie.

" his essay, which subsequently was translated into several languages and which received over 10,000 views after the first month, spawned a thread that ran 28 pages and contained the collaborative research efforts of many in jwd.

this thread was thought by some moderators to be the best in the forum -- not necessarily because of the claims in the original essay but because it inspired a staggering amount of research aimed at assessing the credibility of the claims made in the essay, as well as adding to our knowledge of this fascinating yet obscure chapter of watchtower history.

Gamaliel

VM44,

You said:

"It appears that William Pratt Heath, Sr. (1875-1950), vice president of qualifty control at Coca-Cola, was the source of the "Direct Contribution" for Judge Rutherford's house, Beth Sarim."

I think there is still some question about whether the donation came from Dr. Eckols or Heath, or whether the former only dealt with the property and the latter only with the building of the house. They both show up as involved. Thanks for all your research here and on other threads including: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/11/105856/2.ashx (Beth Sarim Deeds and Transfers)

You also asked: "Beth Sarim cost $25,000, what was it that motivated Heath Sr. to donate such a large sum?"

Before Rutherford's religion, Russell's religion had been attracting a much more sophisticated crowd - and Rutherford couldn't be too quick to demonize Russell's old teachings or he could lose their support. In any case, these followers were very anxious to believe that the world had ended, that millions now living would never die. The seeds of Beth Sarim started only one year after their riches were supposed to turn to rust. 1925 had been more clearly spelled out in Scripture than 1914, according to Rutherford.

A quick, speculative "follow-the-money" exercise might reveal something else, whether it was Heath or Eckols might be immaterial:

Remember that the check-signer for the Society from 1918 (and into the early 1920's) was MacMillan. (Faith on the March, 94) He says about the Society: "Yet when it is necessary they will spend thousands of dollars for equipment and millions for new buildings to expand the preaching program. In doing all this, Jehovah's witnesses have always managed to pay as they go." (Faith on the March, 208)

But in 1926 something unexpected happened, that appears to be in contrast to the usual pay as you go. It happened because of the method of collecting for a new building. Keep in mind that the Watchtower publications don't admit that Martin, factory manager, was involved in the property deal as early as 1926. The Watchtower always refers to the year 1929, when Martin made the arrangements. But the records show Martin's dealings with Rutherford's San Diego doctor (A. Eckols) for the property as early as October 1, 1926. And 1926 was the year that the Watchtower Society admits to being flooded with too much money.

Here are some excerpts from the next few pages of MacMillan's book, pages 208-210:

------------------- THE PEOPLE BRING MORE THAN ENOUGH

There is an interesting story in that connection I'd like to tell you. It has to do with building our first factory at 117 Adams Street in Brooklyn. ... This was in 1926. It was going to cost a substantial sum of money, so Martin, the factory manager, and I got together and talked it over. We went to Rutherford and said, "Brother Rutherford, if you would issue notes at a reasonable interest and offer them to our own people you'll get all that is necessary to build the factory and it would be in the family." "Oh," he said, "if I set out something like that in The Watch Tower, that would cause a furor, it would disrupt the organization. They'd say, Look at them now, they've started in begging."

"But you wouldn't be soliciting or asking for contributions. Just a loan. Why don't you do this? Put a little supplement in there, not as a regular part of the Tower. Tell the friends all about it, what the money's for and how it will be used, and I'll guarantee you that in no time at all there will be sufficient funds to build that factory, because everybody in the truth that's devoted to Jehovah is as interested in it as we are and I think it will thrill them to think they can have some part in it."

Well, Rutherford didn't say much after that but he became quite serious and thought about it. Sure enough, he did issue that special edition of the Watch Tower and sent it out. I left on a trip about that time and got back in five or six weeks. Rutherford came to me with a very serious look on his face, and said, "Brother, you were so sure that a few weeks after the Tower would get out with that special notice in it that there would be enough funds come in here to build the factory. Here it's been six or eight weeks and just a few little dribbles have come in." "Brother Rutherford, you haven't been out amongst our people as I have. The friends have their money in savings banks or hidden away in a glass jar under the cellar stairs or in the rafters of the barn — who knows where it is? Give them a little time. They'll think it over — it will be two or three months before it will begin to come in. Now I'm going away on another trip and I'll be back in about two months, and if there's not enough in here then to build that factory, I'll take you out and get you the finest chicken dinner we can get in Brooklyn." (He always did like chicken.) "And if there is enough in there, then Brother Martin and I will be looking for that chicken as your treat."

I left on my next speaking trip then and came back in eight weeks. I met Rutherford in the hallway and I said, "Well, Brother Rutherford, how are the subscriptions for loans coming in?"

"Oversubscribed — had to send some back."

"Well," I said, "I have a thousand dollars in my pocket that's been offered."

"Send it back, we don't need it." And we certainly didn't; we had more than enough.

Instead of borrowing money from a bank, we had borrowed it from our own people and the Society gave them a note at the regular rate of interest, although many of Jehovah's witnesses waived the interest. It was understood by those receiving notes that they could request their money in full at any time if they might unexpectedly have need for it. These received their money at once and the rest were paid off as the regular voluntary contributions made it possible. Before the notes had matured, all had been settled.

501

Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

having problem pasting this...

Gamaliel

Fisherman,

In the 70's, after 4 years of pioneering -- much of that time spent with sisters about my age -- I had fully expected Bethel to be sisterless. I spent only a couple months in the bindery before getting transferred to the air-conditioned Photoplate department on 1-8, and there were 3 sisters there and several more on the same floor doing proofreading/translating. I did artwork and graphics all day sitting on a high chair at a large glass "light table" next to a single sister, and after a promotion, my normal height desk faced directly towards this same single sister. My eyes now even with her legs, which were always in a pastel-colored skirt, 1 inch above the knee, but tight enough to ride up about 3 to 4 inches above the knee when she sat. (I'm thinking that her name was Judy Martin, but for some reason I remember the exact shape of her legs more clearly than her name). I always thought of her as cute, maybe even pretty, although circumstances could have clouded my judgment.

I talked to her daily and sometimes we'd get away with hours of time talking and working together in the darkrooms. Oddly, she always put on a perky, flirtatious front, but I quickly found her to be lonely and depressed. She was probably 10 years older than me, so we never let the conversation drift toward "romance". I remember once she was mad at me for two days when I referred to her as coquettish, but she forgave me. A very jealous brother in the same department hated me for spending so much time with her. Looking back, I'm surprised he got couldn't get me kicked out, although I know it was the difference in our work assignments that saved me. Judy was one of the first to know of my "apostasy" (my Bible questions) in full detail, and she never turned me in even after two years. She may have thought I had a "spiritual" death wish. It was big news in the department, when Dan Sydlik called me to his office. She and one or two others thought it was the end of my Bethel and/or JW career -- and my always jealous nemesis was gloating.

(As an aside, Sydlik knew I read the Bible with Lengtat and that I was a friend of other "personae non gratae" but when he hinted about this, I merely told him that I didn't want to talk about that, and that I was hoping he'd give me some marriage advice, since I was planning on leaving Bethel in a few months to get married to a sister -- a sister well-known by Fred Rusk, Rinehart, Doc Dixon, and others. His face brightened and he looked relieved himself that I wanted to change the subject.)

I never really noticed a difference in the beauty of married sisters and non-married sisters, with the possible exception of "Sister Sydlik". One of the prettiest sisters at Bethel was a doe-eyed Dutch Gilead student who was rooming with a single sister who was also a friend and next-door neighbor next to the Gilead Library. We spent some study time together but, alas, she was engaged to meet her fiance in her upcoming missionary assignment. I had an older version of U.V. Glass's Gilead notes and we spent some time comparing notes. The most "immoral" thing I ever did at Bethel was give her roommate, Wynn, a back massage. I never thought the back massage was immoral, but we weren't supposed to close the door. Her roommate knew but didn't turn us in. Wynn finally got married, too.

Your comments on racism are interesting. The most racist comments I ever heard at Bethel were from Fred Rusk in Writing. They were about me and how my marriage to his "daughter" (his highly-paraded, freshly baptized "Bible study") was doomed to failure because sooner or later I would end up using the "n" word in anger. So far I've been married to his "daughter" for 28 years and the "n" word has never crossed my mind, except musically.

Greg

5

info request on recent stupidity in print

by Not Feeling It in

hi all, i'll be spending time with some jws for a few days.

wt topics inevitably arise.

to be prepared i'd like to go through the past 6 months of kool-aid & sanitized magazines for any extra looney stuff.

Gamaliel

I think one of the biggest changes in the last six months is the Feb 15, 2008 Wt article that redefines "the generation" which will not pass away, from Matthew 24.

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/153632/2809772/post.ashx#2809772

There are a lot more discussions than the link. But it's quick and short and gives you the idea.

501

Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

by Dogpatch in

jw
friends

having problem pasting this...

Gamaliel

Warren,

"But last of all {this thread} appeared also to me as if to one born prematurely." (1 Cor 15:something-or-other)

Thanks for letting me know about this thread. I enjoyed it thoroughly. Reminded me of memories I forgot that I had.

For me, this is one of the best kinds of threads to read. Bethel was about the best thing that ever happened to me (at least from 1976 up to 1980). It can be the perfect jumping off point (weaning ground) for JW's realizing they can never go back home.

Your brother,
Greg

Tom: I'm about to go on vacation in a few days. So I'll try to get in touch before then.

Randy: Warren gave me some updates after contacting you. Glad to see you're still going strong. Great site! Great CD's!

CoonDawg: That might have been me giving the talk in St.James. One year (77) I gave some of my own recorded interviews with Fred Franz, Grace DeCecca, etc. On one of my last visits (80) they let me give a talk on the book of Hebrews. Letting us "premature apostates" give our own truly Bible-based talks only lasted a few short years. I left around '82 when they started cracking down on that sort of thing. My talks were basically just compilations from "the best of" my RLengtat notes or JNapolitano, even CAulicino, etc. I'm not a great speaker, but you could still tell that audiences were often hungry to get a talk that went outside of the outlines.

Speaking of great memories, I helped build that house for Roberta out near the Jones'es just before I left for Bethel - from pouring the foundation, several of the wall frames, even putting the tar and shingles on the roof. I remember Vivian and Becky were great fun when we had to go out in service together. We had a great game we used to play where we would talk over each other as fast as possible -- seemed like about 300 words a minute. But it all had to make sense and be responsive to the other person's logic and questions, which were also coming at 300 wpm. Finally one person lost by either flubbing up the fast talk, losing the logic of the "conversation", or usually by bursting out laughing. I recently tried that game again at age 50, and I'm already tongue-tied at < 50 wpm.

TD, Jeff, etc, etc: Great to see so many of you still here.

Saltpeter? Is that really better than a dishonorable discharge?

10

Revelation 6:6

by rassillon in

i am confused, which interpretation of the "olive oil and the wine" did the holy spirit give to the "faithfull slave"?

did the holy spirit forget to correct the reasoning book?

i think jesus and jehovah must be getting confused as to what they are currently teaching the fds, or maybe bethel hasn't paid the bill on that big red phone that jesus calls them on?

Gamaliel

Good catch. I believe there was a wave of confusion on some of these obscure doctrines in the wake of Freddy's death. It has taken several years for Freddy's legacy to erode. Ambitious as Rutherford was, it took 10-15 years or so for Rutherford to start overwriting Russell's interpretations with his own. (Or quite possibly, many were Freddy's even as far back as the late 1920's). Freddy held fast to a lot of Rutherford's ideas and phrases that seemed unnecessary and obsolete. Dunlap's efforts notwithstanding, the Gilead Lectures even in 1980 were still full of Rutherfordian interpretations of the Jephthah class, the Rahab class, the Haman class, the Abishag class (just kidding on that last one). But Freddy had made most of the GB complacent on new light. Only one or two after Freddy had a real interest in overwriting Freddy/Rutherford but it was a bit too little, too late, and they were also getting too old, and weren't getting the same respect Freddy got. Also, this was also during a time when "new light" was not flashy any more, but was intentionally subtle so as not to make waves. I believe the great apostate hunts of 1980 were actually a backlash from Freddy, who was feeling that his own interpretations were being disrespected. Some Watchtower writers were trying to fill a spiritual a vacuum after Freddy's failure on 1975. And most of the expanded GB were trying to fill a political vacuum. But when Freddy got a second wind, he maneuvered behind the scenes to clean house. There was a conservative renewal of Rutherford/Freddy especially in the early 1980's but it was unsustainable. I think that resulted in some doctrinal confusion at the end of the 1980's and early 1990's. Of course, I could be wrong.

48

4 JW's KILLED by TRAIN out in SERVICE

by DannyHaszard in

train crash victims spreading word about jehovah's witness faith

fifty-six-year-old annie johnson of somerville, 54-year-old rosa jones ... waff

2 hours ago

Gamaliel

How very tragic and sad. And to think that they may have even included the family and loved ones of people in this very forum.

Gamaliel

18

Watchtower admits Satanic roots

by press any key in

seems a bit extreme but read on.

we all know how fond russell was of the pyramids and their various measurements.

if not check out .

Gamaliel

Sorry if someone has already posted this but does anyone have some good attendance/memorial numbers for the years from 1914 through the early Rutherford era? Are they accessible somewhere?