Posts by Halcon

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

Halcon

The story indicates that the god is capricious and deceptive.

The entire story is maybe 14 , 15 verses. In those verses God did exactly as he said he would. There is nothing capricious or deceptive by God found in those verses.

Who knows what else it would do to the naive unwitting people if they continued ignorant.

This is going outside of the story in isolation.

Joey -Once again, I feel the need to point out that compared to his offspring, Adam didnt suffer too much.

This is true. It was just him and his wife and a handful of kids for a while.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

Halcon

But that isn’t because of an honest examination of the story in isolation.

The story ends with Adam dying, according to Genesis.

The alternative, the story in isolation, would have been ongoing life for Adam...making love to his wife... making children....in a paradise... without struggle...

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

Halcon

Tonus -I doubt that the intent was to promote the idea that ignorance is bliss, but it's an unavoidable conclusion. Or that god's perfect setup was undone by allowing humans to make their own decisions.

As a person of faith, I believe it's simply so that I may understand what happened, why things went south for mankind. The snake was clearly at fault in my opinion.

It also brings up the question of how desireable free will is. If there is one path that makes us happy and prosperous, and every other path leads to misery and suffering, what good does it do us to have a choice?

I agree that free will only goes so far. In the end, one is still subject to God's 'laws'. Saying I choose to not subject myself to God only to suffer hell or non-existence is really not much of a choice.

The question is about humility. Will I recognize God as my creator and I am the creation, only human? That he is subsequently my eternal superior? Or will I refuse to accept that there is no other way and go down into non-existence.

The snake apparently refused. And very likely lied to Adam and Eve simply out of spite.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

Halcon

Tonus - I think the focus on "who lied first" is a distraction (though it might make an interesting Abbott and Costello routine). Even as an allegorical tale, it implies that god withheld important understanding from mankind and left us to our own (uninformed) devices, then punished us for it.

Meanmustard brought up some good points regarding the very possible mental capacity of Adam and Eve at this juncture, which I believe further explains and justifies the simplicity of God's command to stay away from the tree of knowledge.

The command was so simple and elementary so as to borderline on 'dumb'. Why did the snake insist on eating from this forbidden tree given all the circumstances? As mustard pointed out, Adam and Eve couldn't have fathomed the consequences of disobedience, since even the concept of 'death' was not clear to them...such was their lack of comprehension.

Was it really about forbidding them from critical and life giving knowledge? Were they truly going to be a most miserable unhappy couple for being humble and trusting their Creator?

It was the snake that felt what you described or implied tonus.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

Halcon

Tonus -I don't see a context in which the snake is good, at least as a counterbalance to god.

Hi tonus. My apologies for the confusion. Here, I was being sarcastic. I was referring to the statement jeffro made that it was God who had lied first.

I was simply commenting on the efficiency of the snake to confuse and gaslight. However, I think jeffro was also at that point of the conversation also being just playful and sarcastic.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

Halcon

Mustard- A man that has no knowledge of good and evil can't be given a reason "why" he should refrain, other than a direct threat to his own physical experience, just a general consequence in a cause/effect relationship.

Yes, I would agree this sums up what transpired between Adam and God.

He could understand facts told to him. And logic. But since he didn't understand good from evil, right from wrong, navigating a world of free will would be like navigating a world of color when all you can see is gray.

All the more reason for him to have simply kept doing what he'd been doing all along until then. God couldn't have made it easier, even for someone that didn't know good from evil.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

Halcon

Seemed legit. 🤣

Lol

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

Halcon

Jeffro -Yes, God told the lie.

This snake is good...

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

Halcon

And, in the story, the snake was correct. It was not certain that eating from the tree of knowledge would result in death.

Except God said -

17 "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die".

Eve understood the same thing, repeating it back to the snake verbatim.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

Halcon

jeffro -In the version I have, God doesn’t tell Eve (who doesn’t get a name until later in the story) anything about either tree, and only tells Adam about the tree of knowledge. The story doesn’t state whether Eve is directly told by God about the tree of knowledge or whether it’s via Adam, but it doesn’t say either are told about the tree of life.

Here is Genesis chapter 2

15 "The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die"

God prohibited Adam and Eve to eat from only ONE tree. They could eat from all the other trees to their hearts content. This included the tree of life.

As presented in the story, the snake didn’t lie when it said that eating the knowledge fruit doesn’t itself cause death.

God said of the wrong tree, and Eve repeated in the next chapter, "for when you eat from it you will certainly die".

The snake said the exact opposite thing as the words above..."you will not certainly die".