Halcon

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Posts by Halcon

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  299

  Who told the first lie?

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

  god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

  in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

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• 

  Halcon

  Jeffro -In that case, the snake couldn’t validly be accused of deception if it didn’t know right from wrong.

  Except the snake knew what God had already told Adam and Eve. He directly contradicted God.
• 
  299

  Who told the first lie?

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

  god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

  in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Halcon

  Tonus -Both god and the serpent even use the same phrasing, that she would 'become like god.' As an allegory, it isn't perfect, but it works well enough-- Eve is tempted by the possibility of being able to direct her own life, independent of god's rules. (The fact that this idea is so obviously flawed is simply a reflection of the people and culture that produced it, IMO.

  Yes. To someone like me, this is the heart of the matter. The failure to recognize one's limited position before God.

  The all-or-nothing approach (obey or die) is extreme in any context, much less one where god is meant to be a kind and loving father who is pained by our failures. It is impossible to square the ideal person of god with the person who sets Adam and Eve up for a fall, then is merciless in his method of resolution. If this was the best outcome one could have hoped for, then god is not the person that the NT makes him out to be.

  It's impossible to square the 'ideal' person of God with anything when it is WE that determine what is ideal.

  However, God himself reveals exactly who he is. And altho the scriptures repeatedly demonstrate his consideration and affection for his creation, many simply cannot accept that he also has the final say.
• 
  299

  Who told the first lie?

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

  god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

  in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Halcon

  Mustard- But it goes much deeper. "Trust" is a "reliance on the character, ability, strength, or truth of someone or something".

  I would ask, are ALL of these traits needed for trust? Or how about any one of them? Adam knew of God's ability. The ability to create. To bring something forth into existence that wasn't there before. His wife for example. And his reaction/response to the sudden presence of his wife was positive, it was good. Couldn't Adam trust that God could do this again?

  How can they rely on the "truth" of God when they don't even understand what "lies" are? What we would call someone's "character" is based on whether they believe and display "good" traits, and not "evil" ones - none of which Adam or Eve would be able to decern.

  Yet the snake was very selective of his words and method. It wasn't just random gibberish. Why?

  The snake asked Eve to repeat the very exact words of God, 'is it true that God said you WILL die?"

  Eve responded with 'yes'. How do you explain that she understood how to respond correctly, and not be confused by what the snake asked?

  Further, the snake resorted to a temptation... that they would be like God. It wasn't sufficient to leave it at 'you will not die'.

  Why did the snake resort to it? Doesn't the inclusion of a temptation imply that Eve had sufficient intelligence and mental capacity to require a sleight of hand? Otherwise, any gibberish spoken by the snake would have been sufficient to induce the disobedient act.
• 
  299

  Who told the first lie?

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

  god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

  in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Halcon

  Jeffro -And the snake was right. She ate the fruit and didn’t die. The god in the story took separate steps after its lie about the knowledge fruit was made evident.

  Hehe.... keep trying jeffro
• 
  299

  Who told the first lie?

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

  god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

  in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Halcon

  Tonus, oooofff...these are tough questions. I'm already feeling like I'm sinking in quicksand just thinking about answering them 😅. I'll share what I believe.

  Tonus -I think it's a question of whether god was satisfied with this, and why he would introduce a factor which unraveled his utopia.

  Genesis states God was satisfied with his creation, he saw it as 'good'. Genesis doesn't imply anywhere that God introduced a factor to purposely unravel what he saw as good.

  But where does the serpent come from? God must have created it.

  Indeed, God created the angels, including the one now known as the snake. And based on the actions of many angels (materializing into men for ex), they too were created with the capacity to subject to God or not. The snake clearly didn't accept the rules and limitations imposed on him by God.

  Did he do so with the understanding that it would work to undermine paradise and trap humanity in centuries of suffering? Were the humans ready for this kind of test? If not, was it fair.

  Again, this was clearly not God's intention (considering the entire Bible). God did not set up his creation just to simply fail.

  The point was for humanity to be given the chance to express humility towards the Creator. To recognize him as God. God expressed his superiority from the very beginning. He never hid this from his creation. He never called his creation equal to him.

  Now, to a person of faith, God loved man first. It wasn't about subjecting man to a terrible existence. He gave Adam everything he needed, first. This is what Genesis states. After God gives man everything first, he gives man one simple rule. It wasn't vague either. There was no trick to it. No deep comprehension of spirituality and philosophy was required.

  Adam knew he was inferior to God. Adam was familiar with the concept of affection and appreciation (for his wife for ex). He knew God had given him everything he had. Finally, God warned him that he would die, in effect lose everything, if he went against the rule.

  But none of this compelled him to obey the one ridiculously simple command.
• 
  299

  Who told the first lie?

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

  god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

  in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Halcon

  Jeffro -It didn’t. The wise serpent (the same word translated ‘crafty’ or ‘cunning’ is translated as ‘wise’ or ‘prudent’ in Proverbs) truthfully told Eve that eating the fruit doesn’t actually cause death.

  Jeffro, your key word here is 'actually'...a word that neither God nor the snake used.

  God simply said 'you will die'... whereas the snake said 'you will not die '.
• 
  299

  Who told the first lie?

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

  god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

  in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Halcon

  The story indicates that the god is capricious and deceptive.

  The entire story is maybe 14 , 15 verses. In those verses God did exactly as he said he would. There is nothing capricious or deceptive by God found in those verses.

  Who knows what else it would do to the naive unwitting people if they continued ignorant.

  This is going outside of the story in isolation.

  Joey -Once again, I feel the need to point out that compared to his offspring, Adam didnt suffer too much.

  This is true. It was just him and his wife and a handful of kids for a while.
• 
  299

  Who told the first lie?

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

  god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

  in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Halcon

  But that isn’t because of an honest examination of the story in isolation.

  The story ends with Adam dying, according to Genesis.

  The alternative, the story in isolation, would have been ongoing life for Adam...making love to his wife... making children....in a paradise... without struggle...
• 
  299

  Who told the first lie?

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

  god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

  in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Halcon

  Tonus -I doubt that the intent was to promote the idea that ignorance is bliss, but it's an unavoidable conclusion. Or that god's perfect setup was undone by allowing humans to make their own decisions.

  As a person of faith, I believe it's simply so that I may understand what happened, why things went south for mankind. The snake was clearly at fault in my opinion.

  It also brings up the question of how desireable free will is. If there is one path that makes us happy and prosperous, and every other path leads to misery and suffering, what good does it do us to have a choice?

  I agree that free will only goes so far. In the end, one is still subject to God's 'laws'. Saying I choose to not subject myself to God only to suffer hell or non-existence is really not much of a choice.

  The question is about humility. Will I recognize God as my creator and I am the creation, only human? That he is subsequently my eternal superior? Or will I refuse to accept that there is no other way and go down into non-existence.

  The snake apparently refused. And very likely lied to Adam and Eve simply out of spite.
• 
  299

  Who told the first lie?

  by nicolaou in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

  god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

  in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Halcon

  Tonus - I think the focus on "who lied first" is a distraction (though it might make an interesting Abbott and Costello routine). Even as an allegorical tale, it implies that god withheld important understanding from mankind and left us to our own (uninformed) devices, then punished us for it.

  Meanmustard brought up some good points regarding the very possible mental capacity of Adam and Eve at this juncture, which I believe further explains and justifies the simplicity of God's command to stay away from the tree of knowledge.

  The command was so simple and elementary so as to borderline on 'dumb'. Why did the snake insist on eating from this forbidden tree given all the circumstances? As mustard pointed out, Adam and Eve couldn't have fathomed the consequences of disobedience, since even the concept of 'death' was not clear to them...such was their lack of comprehension.

  Was it really about forbidding them from critical and life giving knowledge? Were they truly going to be a most miserable unhappy couple for being humble and trusting their Creator?

  It was the snake that felt what you described or implied tonus.