Posts by Halcon

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

Halcon

Nicolaou - Whatever value can be drawn from these stories if they're treated as allegorical is lost the moment they're taken literally. I think part of it is the fear that not taking stories like the Fall literally will bring the whole house of cards.

In this thread's example, the snake could have been anything else...a butterfly, horse, a rock etc...the meaning of the story would remain the same to a christian. In fact the exact same meaning would have been expressed with a hundred different settings and characters.

Pete touched above on the human aspects that a story like the one discussed in this thread engaged...the intellect, the heart and the spirit.

It pantomimes religious concepts like obedience to religious law when at odds with individual and intellectual freedom.

Does the materialist discard the mind, heart and spirit? Yet they are the aspects of a human being that the scriptures place the most importance on. The line between literal and spirit is not so clearly defined.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

Halcon

Tonus - The scriptures are fairly vague about this, though. Perhaps the one clear indication is that we are to spend eternity glorifying a being who doesn't need to be glorified.

Again, many folks do feel that need in their heart to show appreciation for their Creator. Not everyone is opposed.

Why go through a relatively brief life that doesn't come close to resembling the life we will spend the rest of eternity in?

For the same folks I mentioned above, this isn't a problem. Myself personally, I do think that things here are indeed a little vague. When I read the Bible, the line between spirit and material gets very blurry...will it be the same or different in 'heaven'? Not sure.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

Halcon

Tonus -Over a long enough time span, it is reasonable to expect that none of his creation will avoid his wrath.

Not correct, if the scriptures are to be believed regarding the eventual unity between mankind and God.

What scenario is there, where we do not offend god? The only possible future where we are not all hellbound is one where we are stripped of free will and remade to serve. And if this was to be the eventual outcome, why not do it from the start?

This is a reasonable conclusion based on what we perceive on the surface. However, it's again reducing/underestimating God's capacity.

Don't forget, that despite failing to follow his rules there are many that truly want to. These folks don't need to have their free will removed.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

Halcon

Tonus - We cannot stop him, we cannot hide from him, and the best we can do is hope that we're not the next target.

I would agree with everything up until here. I believe the best we can do, is to try to follow his rules. Ecclesiastes chapter 2 reads ..."to the person who pleases him, God gives wisdom, knowledge and happiness...".

We can define him however we wish, but his actions make it quite clear who he is and what he is like. He is a frightening being, when we recognize that his actions are who he is.

No doubt, God causes us human beings to feel fear, to see him as frightening. But isn't this a logical response from us? Imagine a person with absolute power and absolute ability to wield it, as you stated correctly. And not just in the physical world here but in the spiritual one too. To cause life to arise from nothing...and to take it right back to dust.

It's not for nothing that the scripture states that the fear of God, is the beginning of wisdom. First comes humility, then everything else falls into place. That's the sequence, as I understand it from the Bible.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

Halcon

Lol , 17 pages....nicolaou must be regretting starting this thread

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

Halcon

Pete- Who gets the final say? The GB? the Pope? an ancient writer we never met? God hasn't said anything.

The final say. Ultimate authority. In the end, God decides. As he has a right to, as our Creator.

Tonus -When I was a believer, I thought of god as the single most impressive and amazing individual I could possibly ever have the privilege of knowing. The idea that I might find him to be unimpressive or disappointing was simply unfathomable.

Perhaps your comprehension of who God is was not fully clear. I can imagine the surprise of realizing that God wasn't a big soft teddy bear after all.

many beings have decided it is better to die and/or suffer than to live under his rule. What could they know about him that would lead them to behave in such a manner?

I suppose it has to do with what I mentioned earlier. That he has the final say, and that there is no compromising. Many simply cannot accept this and would choose to not exist than to exist within his rules.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

Halcon

Jeffro -In that case, the snake couldn’t validly be accused of deception if it didn’t know right from wrong.

Except the snake knew what God had already told Adam and Eve. He directly contradicted God.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

Halcon

Tonus -Both god and the serpent even use the same phrasing, that she would 'become like god.' As an allegory, it isn't perfect, but it works well enough-- Eve is tempted by the possibility of being able to direct her own life, independent of god's rules. (The fact that this idea is so obviously flawed is simply a reflection of the people and culture that produced it, IMO.

Yes. To someone like me, this is the heart of the matter. The failure to recognize one's limited position before God.

The all-or-nothing approach (obey or die) is extreme in any context, much less one where god is meant to be a kind and loving father who is pained by our failures. It is impossible to square the ideal person of god with the person who sets Adam and Eve up for a fall, then is merciless in his method of resolution. If this was the best outcome one could have hoped for, then god is not the person that the NT makes him out to be.

It's impossible to square the 'ideal' person of God with anything when it is WE that determine what is ideal.

However, God himself reveals exactly who he is. And altho the scriptures repeatedly demonstrate his consideration and affection for his creation, many simply cannot accept that he also has the final say.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

Halcon

Mustard- But it goes much deeper. "Trust" is a "reliance on the character, ability, strength, or truth of someone or something".

I would ask, are ALL of these traits needed for trust? Or how about any one of them? Adam knew of God's ability. The ability to create. To bring something forth into existence that wasn't there before. His wife for example. And his reaction/response to the sudden presence of his wife was positive, it was good. Couldn't Adam trust that God could do this again?

How can they rely on the "truth" of God when they don't even understand what "lies" are? What we would call someone's "character" is based on whether they believe and display "good" traits, and not "evil" ones - none of which Adam or Eve would be able to decern.

Yet the snake was very selective of his words and method. It wasn't just random gibberish. Why?

The snake asked Eve to repeat the very exact words of God, 'is it true that God said you WILL die?"

Eve responded with 'yes'. How do you explain that she understood how to respond correctly, and not be confused by what the snake asked?

Further, the snake resorted to a temptation... that they would be like God. It wasn't sufficient to leave it at 'you will not die'.

Why did the snake resort to it? Doesn't the inclusion of a temptation imply that Eve had sufficient intelligence and mental capacity to require a sleight of hand? Otherwise, any gibberish spoken by the snake would have been sufficient to induce the disobedient act.

299

Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou in

this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?

god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.

in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.

Halcon

Jeffro -And the snake was right. She ate the fruit and didn’t die. The god in the story took separate steps after its lie about the knowledge fruit was made evident.

Hehe.... keep trying jeffro