this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
Tonus -I'm more fascinated by the concept of the Tree of Life. The story implies that Adam and Eve were not immortal- they had a finite lifespan. They had to have access to the Tree of Life if they wanted to continue to live. Yahweh is not above the most petty mechanisms of control.
But would you still eat of the tree of life if it meant to keep living?
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
Joey -No normal person would punish the descendants of a person in perpetuity because they disobeyed.
Are you sure this is what a person of faith believes?
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
God: Well, I can't help but notice, along with all the angels, that you tend to spend your day masterbating around the garden.
Lol. Maybe this is why he was given a wife. Brilliant, even better.
Joey - Assuming Adam and Eve deserved their fate, where in the bible is the part that warns Adam and Eve that all of their descendants will be punished for their crime?
This is the same question as mustard's regarding the justification for the punishment. If you are a person of faith, it's justified.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
So? The ability to understand the words, and the meaning of the words, is different than understanding the moral implications of the command. Without the knowledge of "good" and "evil", there is NO concept of "should" and "should not".
Which is precisely why the mechanism was trust.
The existence of other trees in the garden matters because it simplified the command even more.
You might counter that they shouldn't have believed or trusted anything anyone else said. But upon what basis do they have the ability to make that judgement? The idea that they are being deceived is derived from the knowledge of good and evil. If they are to "trust" God, then they would "distrust" others. What reason would they have to "distrust" others, except for the possibility they may be deceived, and that's beyond their ability to discern of even "know" at that moment.
Again, the command was extraordinarily simple. You make a good point that they didn't yet know good from evil at this juncture. But this just emphasized the importance of trust. For Adam to do exactly what you stated above, to understand the words and do accordingly with the words for no other reason than because his Creator told him to....versus doing according to the words of the snake, if for no other reason than because they were not like the words of God.
Ok. What do you mean by "better"?
Adam understood that he was not God. He understood that he didn't know how to create things, like God created the garden and his wife Eve. He understood that God knew how to manipulate energy better to accomplish creation. Because God knew these things better, God was superior. So he understood that God gave him instructions, and he followed them. He knew God was in charge. Adam understood he was subservient to God.
If a mentally retarded child takes a candy bar from a store, do we dole out the death penalty?
Adam was mentally capable enough to grasp he wasn't God and subsequently be subservient to him.Therefore, the command of staying away from that tree was further simplified by the fact that it would be just another manifestation of an existing and established pattern of obedience.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
These are good questions mustard.
In legal terms, Adam and Eve were not capable of having the mens rea to commit any "crime". They cant understand "crime" itself.
Hence, the simplicity of the command.
It wasn't even about a single, isolated tree beckoning them. It was a garden. There were trees everywhere. All blending in and looking the same or similar perhaps.
In short: By what mechanism did God expect Adam and Eve to do "the right thing"? And for what reason is the ultimate price appropriate or justified?
If I'm understanding your question correctly, that mechanism was trust. Assuming that Adam and Eve were as ignorant as you propose, it would be trust. The scriptures tell us Adam deferred to God, knowing he was inferior to God, not equals. He knew that much...that God, by virtue of being 'superior' would know better.
The scripture also reveals that they understood that death, whatever that was, was not a desired thing. They had enough capacity to put not following God's command as equaling death, as equaling not a desired thing.
How do we know this? Because they had stayed away from that tree, until the snake shows up.
Also, why is Satan a "master deceiver"? Seems like deceiving Adam and Eve would be like putting a bacon treat in front of a puppy..
Here, one can say "but there was bacon everywhere else".
Wether satan is a master deceiver or not... well as you can see, many folks here couldn't point to the actual lie he told. In fact, they kept stating he told the absolute truth. I would say that takes some skill.
As for the ultimate price being justified. People of faith will always defer to God, always. People without faith, obviously never will.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
Nicolaou -Incorrect. You're conflating two separate conversations, one that god had with Adam re the tree of knowledge and the second he had with deities unidentified about the tree of life.
Nicolaou, see the verses in Genesis chapter 2 below -
"15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."
God prohibited Adam and Eve from eating from only ONE tree. He could eat from any other tree in the garden. That included the tree of life.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
Joey- Sorry? How in the hell would anyone possibly know that?
Because Genesis 3:1 reads-
"Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?"
Now joey, how would the snake know what God said?
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
Dagney -Did Noah get those snakes on the boat so Moses could write about a talking snake, [a TALKING SNAKE!!], hundreds of years later?
Lol... snake, evil, sin, hatred, murder....there are many forms to this thing.
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
Joey -If there was open and free access to the "tree fo life", which granted immortality, as there was to the "tree of knowledge" - how was the serpent to know god would restrict access to it so that adam and eve couldnt live forever after they ate the fruit.
Because the snake was present when God gave Adam and Eve his instructions regarding all trees, Joey.
We know this because it was the snake himself who revealed that he was listening to God when he initiated the conversation with Eve..."did God really say...?"
So you are correct, Adam and Eve could eat from the tree of life forever and ever, something the snake KNEW. Clearly, it was the mechanism thru which God would keep them alive since God immediately restricted Adam and Eve from going near it after eating from the wrong tree.
The serpent told adam and eve exactly what would occur- if they ate from the tree of knowledge - they would know good and bad. That happened and it was confirmed by god in Gen 3: 22.
As with Simon, I agree completely with you here. But you are referring here to what the snake said after the lie. And that lie was,
"you will not die".
this is a continuation of the discussion which sprang from an unrelated topic.. so according to genesis, who told the first lie?
god told eve that if she ate from the tree of knowledge she would die that very same day.
in response to that statement the devil told her she would not die.. eve ate from the tree and did not die.
Jeffro-It sure is funny (and quite pitiful) that there are people who believe that this unoriginal and nonsensical story is actually true. And the people who just accept that it’s all true with no evidence are generally the same people who expect ‘nonbelievers’ to explain complex scientific processes in detail in multiple fields. But they just make up trite excuses for primitive and obviously wrong folklore.
I think it's a good question that nicolaou asked.
