Posts by Halcon

41

John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God

by Sea Breeze in

in answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!

- john 20: 28 nwt.

why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.

Halcon

SB-Remove Jesus deity and you have a different Jesus.

From man's perspective perhaps. Don't forget we are all trying to get better comprehension of something we will never fully understand since God is only one and only God's spirit can fully know God according to Paul.

As long as we believe that he has has ALL authority in heaven and earth in order to make such an agreement, and if we ask him for it, and abandon ourselves to Him; I believe that the Holy Spirit as an internal witness will make any necessary corrections in fairly short order.

One hundred percent correct.

41

John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God

by Sea Breeze in

in answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!

- john 20: 28 nwt.

why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.

Halcon

aqwsed-Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know this, are not thereby condemned; but those who receive the revelation are called to accept it in faith, not because it can be exhaustively explained, but because it is the self-gift of God Himself.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. However, simply knowing that there is a doctrine called the Trinity is itself not a revelation.

One can accept the resurrection of Christ thru faith despite not actually being one of the disciples back then because of the generally understood concepts of 'alive vs dead', for example. The concept of the essence of God is a whole different matter.

We acknowledge different levels of human understanding, how much more so does God. If God has not truly revealed this mystery to a sincere soul, he wouldn't condemn such soul for it either.

41

John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God

by Sea Breeze in

in answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!

- john 20: 28 nwt.

why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.

Halcon

SB- There are only two names on this document, the believer and Jesus. If you make a deal with the wrong Jesus, is it any more valid than if you sign loan documents for the wrong property?

And what constitutes the right Jesus? Remove the Trinity doctrine and we believe in the same Jesus. A doctrine, admitted by everyone here, that cannot be fully understood because of our limited human comprehension.

To condemn a soul to hell over a doctrine that is impossible to fully understand (using very human terms such as father and son to say the least) does not align with a God who wishes for all to be saved.

These words should weigh heavy: " I never knew you".

The context of this verse has Jesus stating that "the one who does the will of my Father is who will enter the kingdom of heaven". Mighty works like casting out demons didn't mean anything to God. But love, compassion and lack of hypocrisy did.

No mention of having to believe in the Trinity doctrine is either mentioned or implied by Jesus here.

41

John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God

by Sea Breeze in

in answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!

- john 20: 28 nwt.

why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.

Halcon

Admittedly, other scriptures say that God raised Jesus from the dead, and that the Holy Spirit raised Jesus from the dead. But, rather that diminish Jesus' claim to be God, it confirms it.

Well, it would appear that we are both right then.

And the reason we are both right, is because neither of us fully understands how this essence of God functions. I suppose we will keep trying to understand forever.

41

John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God

by Sea Breeze in

in answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!

- john 20: 28 nwt.

why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.

Halcon

aqwsed-The term “mystery” does not imply that all interpretations are equally valid or that our efforts to understand are in vain. Rather, it means that the reality being described—the inner life of the triune God—is ultimately above the full grasp of finite human reason, though not contrary to reason.

I completely agree. And they are most certainly not in vain when a sincere heart is searching for a clearer understanding. This is why it isn't damnation for the soul that accepts the Father and the Son as beings not of the Trinity doctrine. Although it may be central to theology, the doctrine is clearly not central to salvation.

I do believe that the doctrine in some ways does enhance our awe, respect and even love for our God. In addition to that it is a fascinating study into this mystery.

But it was God after all that used the very simple terms (knowing how human beings would relate to those terms) of father and son to help us understand him better.

41

John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God

by Sea Breeze in

in answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!

- john 20: 28 nwt.

why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.

Halcon

That is the biblical definition of "death" - when your soul, body and spirit become separated - usually when the body expires.

Correct, the human body disintegrates into nothing.

This is how God shed his blood and died. This is also how Jesus raised himself from the dead, while he was dead as he predicted he would.

This is where we differ in explanation (I believe). You state God raised himself by means of the Father having the same title as the Son.

I say, to be more precise, God the Father raised God the Son (a separate person).

For the sake of conversation, who would be right?

41

John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God

by Sea Breeze in

in answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!

- john 20: 28 nwt.

why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.

Halcon

Just as your spirit (and soul) is certainly not the same person as your flesh, but together they make one being called human or "Man".

I agree, man is flesh and spirit. But when it comes to man, spirit is greater than flesh.(A physical body without mind and heart is what? Nothing.)

The Son, flesh, however retains his full significance as God.

So I don't think it is an adequate comparison, altho it does underline the difference between Son and Father.

41

John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God

by Sea Breeze in

in answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!

- john 20: 28 nwt.

why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.

Halcon

SB-Jesus is still human, and He has a human body in heaven right now. His body is different, however; earthly human flesh is perishable, but heavenly bodies are imperishable (1 Corinthians 15:50). Jesus has a physical body, with a difference. His resurrected body is designed with eternity in view.

Very interesting. And it further confirms that the Son is certainly not the same person as the Father.

41

John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God

by Sea Breeze in

in answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!

- john 20: 28 nwt.

why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.

Halcon

SB-In other words, the Gods are one God.

To be more precise, the Son and the Father both share the same title of God.

41

John 20: 28 in the NWT Calls Jesus God

by Sea Breeze in

in answer thomas said to him: “my lord and my god!

- john 20: 28 nwt.

why don't jehovah's witnesses believe jesus is god when he is called that in their own bible?.

Halcon

Aqwsed, I truly do appreciate your responses as they shed a lot of light on the subject.

But the fact that we've arrived at the 'mystery' part of the conversation renders anyone's interpretation as good as the other. We can only try to wrap our minds around what we are able to grasp, and in the end we all can only say it is truly beyond human comprehension.

I do have a question. In heaven, that is to say in spirit, the Son stands next to the Father. This is not the Son in the flesh praying to the Father but rather two persons in spirit. Cannot the Son communicate in spirit with the Father here as he did from earth as a man? If yes, than what is the difference whether he spoke to the Father as a man or as spirit?