I'd recommend Tuchman to anyone who thinks this century even compares to previous ones:
Of course, most JW's aren't exactly avid readers, which is why they swallow their church's outrageous claims in the first place
Posts by TD
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21
Was 536 the Worst year in history
by pistolpete injws believe that today, the time we live in is the worst time ever in history.
i know cause i just had a jw tell me yesterday this was the case.
he pointed to covid, the russian-ukraine war, the high gas prices and the food shortage happening.
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TD
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Hi again
by Lee Marsh init is nice to see some familiar faces here.
for those who don't know who i am my last id was lady lee.
thought i would drop by and say hello; see how people are doing.
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TD
Hi Lee! So nice to hear from you. Wishing you nothing but the best.
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No beards...even Jesus! Strange Watchower rule for brothers!
by Witness 007 inwatchtower 1954 p.511 "why do watchtower publications now show jesus with short hair and no beard?
because he is shown that way in older representations of him that are older then the traditional effeminate looking pictures.".
watchtower 1968 p.286 "bible evidence and a recent review shows that jesus did have a beard..." charles russell style of beard was popular at bethel...till rutherford took over.
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TD
Notice they wrote the Jesus with a beard was effeminate???? WHAT woman has a Jesus beard.
I don't think they were talking about the beard per se.
Western culture went through a period where the traits we consider masculine today were considered brutish and oafish.
There's plenty of paintings of Michael the archangel that honestly leave you puzzled about his gender:
Paintings of Jesus, even with a beard, weren't much better.
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May 2022 Study Watchtower - FAKE prophecy again for JW's
by BoogerMan inmay 2022 study watchtower page 6, par.
5 “satan instigated an attack on the anointed brothers who were taking the lead in the kingdom-preaching work.
prominent ones among them were the figurative “two witnesses” spoken of as being killed.”.
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TD
Hardly an expert, but didn't the JW's teach the UN was the "scarlet beast" of Rev 17 (the one the harlot rides) and not the "wild beast" of Rev 11?
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Blood Transfusions & Flood, Questions from Bible student only
by Marbles ini was never a jdubb, only a bible student.
there are two main questions i have.
let me preface that by saying that i do not believe the bible is true, or the word of god.
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TD
This is a little tangential to your questions, but it does relate somewhat:
The JW's original objection to transfusion was based on a misconception about what blood did in the body. Prior to the early 20th century it was thought that blood was simply the digested food we had eaten.
Note, for example how H.G. Wells, in his 1898 novel, War of the Worlds speculates about the physiology of a more advanced race:
"Entrails they had none. They did not eat, much less digest. Instead, they took the fresh, living blood of other creatures and injected it into their veins…..The physiological advantages of the practice of injection are undeniable, if one thinks of the tremendous waste of human time and energy occasioned by eating and the digestive process. Our bodies are half made up of glands and tubes and organs, occupied in turning heterogeneous food into blood."
For reasons I don't really understand, JW leaders and policy makers still held this view in the 1940's and 50's when their objection to transfusion crystallized. You can clearly see it in explanations from that time period:
By the 1960's this argument had become untenable, but instead of scrapping the teaching, they came up with other arguments to support it. None of them (the arguments, not the people) have been terribly honest.
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122
1995 generation change
by Gorb innow, many years later, i remember the 1995 generation change, very well.. since early youth, hearing my father explaining in field service the 2520 years.
it was his main theme in the field.. with the change my doubts started.
with some jw friends we did not trust the organization anymore.
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TD
The JW's addressed the question of what, if, any difference exists between the terms "great crowd" and "other sheep" twice in Questions From Readers
One was in 1995 and the other was in the mid 1960's
Survival of Armageddon was not the identifying factor of the great crowd in the 60's, but it definitely was in 1995
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122
1995 generation change
by Gorb innow, many years later, i remember the 1995 generation change, very well.. since early youth, hearing my father explaining in field service the 2520 years.
it was his main theme in the field.. with the change my doubts started.
with some jw friends we did not trust the organization anymore.
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TD
Slim,
When carefully explaining the position of non anointed JWs, Watchtower has used the term “prospective members” of the great crowd, meaning that non anointed believers in 1935, and since, are “in line” to be part of the great crowd.
Exactly,
Since 1970, the correct term for JW's with the earthly hope has been "prospective members" of the "great crowd."
Prior to 1995, that "prospect" was dependent upon the idea that the "great tribulation" would occur within the lifetimes of at least some of these people. (Both of those references are from before 1995.)
That strained their interpretation of Revelation 7 a little, but it didn't break it.
(John's perspective in the vision (As JW's understand it) is after the "great tribulation." He didn't "see" a group of people hoping to come out of it. He saw a group of people who actually did.)
Identifying that group before the fact was a bit of a stretch, but since this was a tangible, mathematically demonstrable "prospect", it was still viable.
25+ years later, I'm not sure how that "prospect" would be defined. -
122
1995 generation change
by Gorb innow, many years later, i remember the 1995 generation change, very well.. since early youth, hearing my father explaining in field service the 2520 years.
it was his main theme in the field.. with the change my doubts started.
with some jw friends we did not trust the organization anymore.
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TD
Hey Slim,
Sorry for a very belated answer. I honestly don’t know how I missed your reply and didn't mean to be rude. (Certainly not 6 months worth of it anyway )
The great crowd is, and always has been, conceived to be the “other sheep” who live through the great tribulation
I disagree. (And will try to document the reasons better this time.)
As I pointed out, from 1935 to 1970 it was taught that the “great crowd” had already come out of the “great tribulation” and that the “prophecy” was already in fulfillment. That tribulation had started in 1914-1918 and those people had "come out of it" by joining the “remnant” of “Christ’s brothers” just as Jonadab had joined Jehu.
Here are early and late examples of that teaching:
“To “come out of the great tribulation” (R.V.) not alone means to survive that trouble as ‘flesh that shall be saved’ (Matt. 24: 22) but primarily means that the great multitude come out from Satan’s organization and take their stand on the side of Jehovah during the period of time that elapses from stopping the World War until the day of Armageddon, that is to say, during the time that the “days should be shortened”, and during which time period this gospel of the kingdom is preached” (The Watchtower August 15, 1935 p. 246)
"They have come out since the “beginning of pangs of distress,” seeking salvation from the enthroned God of heaven and earth and through the once-sacrificed “Lamb,” Jesus Christ. They acknowledge Jehovah God as the rightful Ruler of heavenly angels and earthly men. They do not accept any longer the moral and religious standards of this worldly system of things. Instead, as pictured in Revelation 7:9-15, they confess that they are sinners, and they seek to get rid of their dirty appearance. So they wash their robes in the shed blood of the “Lamb,” to take away the unsightly stain of sin." (The Watchtower December 15 1965 p. 754)
A person therefore became a member of the “great multitude” simply by association with Jehovah’s witnesses:
“The Scriptures and facts also show beyond all doubt that out from that great tribulation there will come a multitude of men of good will toward God and his kingdom and that such multitude has already become apparent and is coming forward singing the praises of Jehovah and saying: “Salvation [be ascribed] to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.” (Revelation 7: 9,10)
(Riches (1936) p. 58)“However, since the question of the "great multitude’’ was made clear at the Washington convention the people of this class made their appearance quickly in Japan. Fourteen men and women symbolized their consecration with water in the last two months, and two service companies were organized, and the service directors were appointed for both companies already.”
(Year Book of Jehovah’s Witnesses For 1936 p.158)“Since the Lord has shown us the meaning of 'the great multitude', we can testify that the multitude is coming forward. Even though the activity is forbidden in Danzig, Jonadabs are coming to join us. Ten of them were recently baptized, and they are taking an active part in the house-to-house service, and some show remarkable courage.”
(1938 Year Book of Jehovah’s Witnesses p. 132)"The present crises in Europe has also added more zeal to the publishers in assisting the "great multitude" coming out of the increasing tribulation on the Devil's world --Rev. 7:14
(1939 Year Book of Jehovah's Witnesses p.99)“The publishers of the Kingdom know that Jehovah through his son, Christ Jesus is gathering the great multitude and great is their joy today to see that multitude coming into the organization, taking a stand and joining the proclamation of the Kingdom.”
(1940 Year Book of Jehovah's Witnesses p.59)“They knew this was only the beginning, because there is yet much work to be done in gathering the great multitude of the Lord’s "other sheep" in Austria.”
(The Watchtower October 15, 1947 p. 315)There was therefore nothing tentative in Rutherford’s identification of the “great multitude” as the “modern day other sheep.” JW writers were clear that they were one and the same:
"The great multitude or Jonadab company manifestly are those whom Jesus called his “other sheep”. To the faithful disciples, the remnant, Jesus said: “I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine [the remnant]; . . . and other sheep I have, which are not of this fold [members of the royal house] : them also [the earthly sheep class] I must bring, and they shall hear my voice ; and there shall be [and they shall become, RV.] one fold [one flock], and one shepherd.“-John 10: 14-16"
(The Watchtower August 15, 1935 p. 250)“The great multitude is that same class which Jesus describes as his "other sheep". “And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd." (John 10: 16)”
(Year Book of Jehovah’s Witnesses for 1936 p. 17)"These honest and sincere ones who thus flee to the Lord the Scriptures designate as the "other sheep" of Jesus Christ, and they are otherwise called Jonadabs and the great multitude."
(1937 Year Book of Jehovah’s Witnesses p. 360)“Those who will compose the Lord’s “other sheep” are not limited as to the number, but are called the
“great multitude” without number, and they come “of all nations and kindreds, and people and tongues”, and they rejoice and joyfully acknowledge that salvation belongeth to Jehovah God and is ministered through Christ Jesus, the King. (Revelation 7: 9, 10)
(Salvation (1939) p. 61)“The members of this "great multitude" are the present-day companions of the remnant….Jesus Christ spoke of them as his "other sheep" who are not of the same fold as the remnant of the church or "body of Christ" because the remnant have a heavenly eternity ahead of them whereas the "other sheep" of the "great multitude" have an earthly eternity in human perfection ahead of them”
(The Watchtower November 1, 1947 p. 325)"Incidentally, this Washington convention proved to be outstanding for the new flash of truth as to the “great multitude” of Revelation 7:9, proving that its members are not a secondary spiritual class destined to go to heaven but that they are an earthly group identical with the “sheep” of Matthew 25:31-46, made known in 1923, and the “Jonadab” class revealed in 1932 with the release of Vindication, Volume 3."
(The Watchtower July 1 1955 p. 394)“It is further true that in the following year at the spring convention held in Washington, D.C., capital of America, the prophecy in Revelation 7:9-17 was explained and the “great multitude” (AV) therein described was declared to be made up of present-day “other sheep” with earthly hopes, this startling explanation being later published in The Watch Tower as of August 1 and 15, 1935.
(The Watchtower December 15, 1969 p. 755)So no, the “great crowd” has not always been defined as those “other sheep” who live through the “great tribulation.” That didn’t happen until 1970, when the JW’s decided that the “great tribulation” had not started in 1914-1918 after all and the “great crowd” had therefore not actually “come out” of it yet. Prior to 1970, all baptized Jehovah’s Witnesses with the “earthly hope” were believed to be the “great crowd.”
Even if the leaders and policy makers of Jehovah’s Witnesses had wanted to acknowledge that Rutherford’s original identification was incorrect, (Which they certainly did not.) it would have been a disaster at this point. By 1970, Jehovah’s Witnesses with the “earthly hope” had been taught for decades that the concentration camps, the lynch mobs, the persecution in countries like Malawi, Spain, Communist China, etc. had all been tests of their integrity because, as Rutherford had said very early on: “Both companies must at all times prove faithful to Jehovah and his kingdom if they would receive God’s ultimate approval.” Just like the “anointed remnant”, the “great crowd” could lose out on their hope through unfaithfulness and who wanted that? These people had been through a lot at this point:
“Have they had a “trial by mockings and scourgings, indeed, more than that, by bonds and prisons”? Have they been stoned, died by slaughter with the sword, gone about in animal skins, been in want, tribulation and ill-treatment, and wandered in deserts, mountains, dens and underground shelters of the earth? (Heb. 11:36-38, NW) Has this same old world acted not worthily of these modern witnesses of Jehovah? THERE is the record of recent years. Consult it. The evidence is overwhelming already!”
(The Watchtower November 1, 1950 pp. 416-417)As I have pointed out, instead of yanking the rug out from under everybody, the JW’s salvaged the doctrine via the idea that “time of the end” would not exceed the lifespan of a single generation. They assured everyone that the “great crowd including many of the earliest members thereof” would live to see the “great tribulation.” I’ve cited an explicit example of that assurance already, but there were plenty more:
“Further helping to strengthen the hope of Jehovah’s servants in the full realization of his purpose was the light that came in 1935 as to the identity of the “great crowd” mentioned at Revelation 7:9. It was then discerned, from a careful study of the Scriptures, that these would survive the “great tribulation,” having the prospect of eternal life on earth. The appearance of such a “great crowd”—particularly since 1935, and now in rapidly increasing numbers—from all nations and lands is additional evidence that the fulfillment of Jehovah’s purpose is indeed at hand. How so? Since a “great crowd” is already in evidence, the “great tribulation” that they will survive must be very near.”
(The Watchtower February 1, 1975 pp. 84,85)“Since the “great crowd” is to survive the “great tribulation,” it is obvious that they would be gathered from among people living in the time just prior to the end of this present system of things….This selection and gathering are taking place now, and will evidently be completed during the lifetime of one generation. Some of that generation will survive into the period of Christ’s thousand-year reign.—Luke 21:32.”
(Life Does Have A Purpose (1977) p.146)“Hence, though Revelation 7:9 is describing this crowd after the tribulation, we may apply the term “great crowd” to all with earthly hopes who are rendering Jehovah sacred service now, just before the great tribulation breaks out with the nations’ attack on false religion.”
(The Watchtower April 15, 1995 p. 31)Rutherford’s original assertion therefore continued to be taught as fact. The “great crowd” was said to be “identical”, “synonymous” and “the same” as “the other sheep” during the “time of the end.”
"Uncertainties about the “great multitude” were removed when Brother Rutherford discussed that subject during the assembly of Jehovah’s witnesses on May 30 to June 3, 1935, in Washington, D.C. In that discourse it was shown Scripturally that the “great multitude” was synonymous with the “other sheep” of the time of the end.”
(1975 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses p. 156)"The “other sheep” are persons who, during these last days, are being gathered within Jehovah’s provision for eternal life on earth on the basis of their faith in the sacrificial value of Jesus’ blood. They are the same as the “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9, 10, 14, and so they have the prospect of surviving the coming great tribulation."
(Survival Into a New Earth (1984) p. 73)"Finally, in 1935 the other sheep living during the time of the end of this system of things were recognized as being the great crowd seen in vision by the apostle John."
(Isaiah's Prophecy: Light for all Mankind II (2001) p. 255)"In a stirring talk on “The Great Multitude,” delivered to about 20,000 conventioners, J. F. Rutherford presented Scriptural proof that the modern-day “other sheep” are identical with that “great crowd” of Revelation 7:9. (John 10:16)"
(The Watchtower May 15 2001 p. 15)"But on May 31, 1935, in a discourse given at a convention of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Washington, D.C., U.S.A., it was Scripturally explained that the “great crowd” (“great multitude,” King James Version) refers to the “other sheep” who live during the time of the end."
(The Watchtower February 15, 2003 p. 19)“In 1935 came a brilliant flash of spiritual light. At the convention held in Washington, D.C., the great multitude was identified as an earthly class, the same as the sheep in Jesus’ parable of the sheep and the goats. (Matt. 25:33-40)"
(God's Kingdom Rules (2014) p. 42)Watchtower writers to this very day claim that the identification of adults living in 1935 as the “great multitude” was “a bright flash of light” with no real explanation of how this can truthfully be said more than 80 years after the fact.
Otherwise can you explain what they need to change and why?
I have. (Or at least attempted to)
The first part is just cold, hard math. The instant you identify a person or group as prospective survivors of a future event, the clock starts ticking because said event must then occur in their lifetime(s). –Else you have misidentified them.
The significance of the D.C. convention in 1935 will therefore probably have to be dropped. It’s clear in retrospect that those people were not even “prospective” members of the “great crowd” as JW’s understand the term.
The possibility of surviving the “great tribulation” will probably have to be redefined as a person’s own subjective expectation rather than the mathematically demonstrable prospect that it was from 1970 to 1995.
This will further uncouple the “great crowd” from the “other sheep” and probably require further explanation of Revelation 7. For example, do the “Other sheep” wash their robes and make them white in the blood of the lamb? Do the “Other sheep” stand before the throne and before the Lamb? Do the “Other sheep” render sacred service day and night in the temple? Do the “Other sheep” benefit from the Ransom prior to the millennium?These are all things the Bible (Again, as JW’s interpret it) says specifically about the “great crowd” and no one else. Absent any tangible connection to that group, where is the applicability here and now? We’ve already seen that hoping you’re of the “great crowd” has little to do with reality.
A couple other teachings that evolved in support of the “great crowd” would need to be either walked back or dropped in entirely. These are:
That the “heavenly hope” was the only hope from Pentecost until the “time of the end” when the proximity of the “great tribulation” made the identification of the “great crowd” possible.
That the Ransom only specifically applies to the “anointed” and the “great crowd” prior to the millennium.
Of course with the publications dumbed-down to the extent they are today, maybe none of this will be necessary. Who knows?
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Robert King aka e-watchman
by RolRod inthere have been a few post about robert king, the first was 16 years ago, the last was 9 years ago.
just to the let the old timers here know, he's still at it.
and for you newbies, robert king who wrote "jehovah himself has become king.
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TD
Wasn't he known as "You Know" or something similar on H20?
Yes. Some might still remember how thoroughly he was into the idea that Y2K would be the apocalypse. Even promised to quit prognosticating if he was wrong.
He participated here under that name too.
A fairly typical example:
https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/33147/financial-doom-judgment-jah
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So many are waking up. Pandemic gave jws time to think.
by pistolpete inthis is not about stats, but "actual experiences" happening world wide in the organization.
there is about 156 comments of what some jws are seeing in their congregation.
feel free to read and come to your own conclusion on whether the watchtower organization is turning pimo but no one says anything in order to keep family relations.
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TD
Interesting. Thanks for the link, Pete
I guess when you think about it, there's acknowledgement of this phenomenon in JW literature itself, with the constant warnings about not missing meetings or developing other interests, because you could become "weak" and "fall out of the truth."