Posts by LauraLynn

40

How Do JWs Understand Salvation & What Is Needed to Obtain It?

by LauraLynn in

from my experience within the jw organization, i understood that salvation meant a person accepted the teachings of the wbts without question as the "faithful and discrete slave," thereby placing their trust in them, not jesus christ.

salvation consisted of being found "righteous" by jehovah and resurrected to everlasting life in an earthly paradise.

to obtain this salvation, one needed to obey the organization's teachings, remain a faithful jw, and lead a moral life.

LauraLynn

@ DesirousOfChange

The average JW DOES NOT understand salvation and what is needed nor do they have any concept of how it works according to WT doctrine. JW'S DO NOT KNOW WHAT THEY BELIEVE!

Exactly. And heartbreaking. I am conversing with one now who claims salvation is "believing in and obeying Jehovah's Son, Jesus Christ." This individual emphasizes obeying here: they claim they are obeying their version of Jesus Christ, but the man behind the curtain is not their god--it's the WBTS (just like Beth Sarim posted). It is a wicked game of shells that they shuffle. They claim god-like authority yet change their doctrines so often ("new light") it is no wonder "JWs do not know what they believe!"

40

How Do JWs Understand Salvation & What Is Needed to Obtain It?

by LauraLynn in

from my experience within the jw organization, i understood that salvation meant a person accepted the teachings of the wbts without question as the "faithful and discrete slave," thereby placing their trust in them, not jesus christ.

salvation consisted of being found "righteous" by jehovah and resurrected to everlasting life in an earthly paradise.

to obtain this salvation, one needed to obey the organization's teachings, remain a faithful jw, and lead a moral life.

LauraLynn

Salvation consisted of being found "righteous" by Jehovah.

@ Sea Breeze

I just wanted to clarify that I have "righteous" in quotes exactly because of their lack of knowledge regarding true justification through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Perhaps I should have worded it: Salvation consisted of being considered worthy by Jehovah. No, they do not teach the truth you have pointed out here so well. You raise many good points:

Salvation does not somehow transfer to another by being a friend of God's friends, i.e. the "little flock" of 144,000, nor being a "friend" of God, i.e. an obedient JW:

"...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," [Romans 3:23]

If everyone has sinned, they are enemies of God:

"But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation." [Romans 5:8-11]

Note through who and what Paul states reconciliation comes: the death and resurrection (life) of His Son, not some friend. And if we are enemies of God before salvation (justification) actually occurs, how could we ever claim to be a friend of God?

There are not two tiers of salvation, one for an especially privileged group and one for the "other sheep." Paul, speaking of the Gentiles and the Jews, states:

"...remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity." [Ephesians 2:12-16]

Here we see that Gentiles (including us in our sinful state!) have no hope are are without God in the world, but we are brought near by the "blood of Christ," not friends of God's friends nor the JW organization. Christ Jesus reconciles both Jews and Gentiles through the cross and only the cross!

As Sea Breeze said, the "alternate method of salvation" through obedience to the WBTS creates "a false Christ." Jesus plainly says, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." [John 14:6] NOT through the JW organization. They are putting themselves in the place of savior, when God's Word succinctly states, "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." [Acts 4:12]

I will stop here for now and respond to other folks soon who have made some excellent points as well.

40

How Do JWs Understand Salvation & What Is Needed to Obtain It?

by LauraLynn in

from my experience within the jw organization, i understood that salvation meant a person accepted the teachings of the wbts without question as the "faithful and discrete slave," thereby placing their trust in them, not jesus christ.

salvation consisted of being found "righteous" by jehovah and resurrected to everlasting life in an earthly paradise.

to obtain this salvation, one needed to obey the organization's teachings, remain a faithful jw, and lead a moral life.

LauraLynn

From my experience within the JW organization, I understood that salvation meant a person accepted the teachings of the WBTS without question as the "faithful and discrete slave," thereby placing their trust in them, not Jesus Christ. Salvation consisted of being found "righteous" by Jehovah and resurrected to everlasting life in an earthly paradise. To obtain this salvation, one needed to obey the organization's teachings, remain a faithful JW, and lead a moral life. If these things were done consistently enough, God would "remember" their faithfulness and reward them with everlasting life. If their service was questionable, so was their salvation. If someone left the organization, they would lose their salvation.

This was back in the 1980s. Has this changed at all?

405

Is Jesus the Creator?

by Sea Breeze in

that's what the word says.

.

colossians 1:16. for by him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through him and for him..

LauraLynn

There have been a lot of well-thought-out responses to Sea Breeze's original question, and many, many offshoots have developed, from whether Christmas or even birthdays should be celebrated all the way to more weighty matters such as whether Jesus is God. I guess we could discuss the differences between JW theology and orthodox theology ad infinitum, but the bottom line should be the gospel message and how we respond to it. And this is the message:

"And there is no other god besides me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none besides me. "Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other." [Isa 45:21-22]

Every single one of us is in need of salvation. The Apostle Paul wrote:

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith." [Rom 3:23-25]

We all fall short of God's holy standard, which is summed up in Jesus' exchange with a Jewish lawyer:

"And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How do you read it?" And he answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself." And he said to him, "You have answered correctly; do this, and you will live."" [Luk 10:25-28]

Jesus challenged this man to live in such a way so as to show wholehearted love and devotion to God and our neighbor in order to inherit eternal life. Yet, who of us can do this perfectly? The only person to ever fulfill this requirement was Jesus. When we compare our lives to the perfect life of Jesus, how do we fare? Did we ever lie, cheat, or steal? Do we love and honor our mother and father? Did we ever commit adultery, or love money more than God?

Only Jesus fulfilled the intent of the Mosaic law perfectly. That is why faith in Jesus' death and resurrection has such power to save us--He is the only one who can stand before God in our place--by His suffering and death He took on the spiritual punishment we deserve for breaking God's laws.

For those who put their faith in Jesus as the promised Messiah who would save us from our sins, He grants eternal life:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." [Jhn 5:24]

""For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God." [Jhn 3:16-18]

I am not an eloquent defender of orthodox Christian faith, but the above is the basis anyone needs to understand and believe. Every other discussion should flow from this simple gospel message. This is the foundation on which all theology should be built. How could I understand more complex topics if the foundation I am building on is not secure?

God is looking for people who are searching for truth, who are humble:

"Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." [Mat 11:28-30]

"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." [Jhn 14:6]

Like Paul says:

"We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God." [2Co 5:20]

]

51

Searching

by Striker in

jude 1:9 (kjv) yet michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, the lord rebuke thee.. matthew 4:10 (kjv) then saith jesus unto him, get thee hence, satan: for it is written, thou shalt worship the lord thy god, and him only shalt thou serve.

.

.....my understanding is that you all believe jesus is michael the archangel....... the two verses above describe two different personalities..... the archangel in jude rebuked satan in the name of the father, because he knew it was not his place to rebuke him, he knew that he didn't have the authority to do so, that the only person who possesses this authority is god himself.... while jesus, in matthew 4:10, does not need to invoke the name of the father to rebuke satan, because the father and jesus are one, not michael and jesus..... .... because michael the archangel is not jesus christ our savior.....

LauraLynn

This is an interesting discussion. But first of all, we can consider that one of the first commandments given by God in the Bible is that He alone is to receive worship:

""You shall have no other gods before me." [Exo 20:3 ESV]

"Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written, "'You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.'"" [Mat 4:10 ESV]

Even angels point to the Lord as being the only God to worship:

"Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God." For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." [Rev 19:10 ESV]

Those who insist that Jesus is merely an angel and not the Lord of Glory have troubles then with the following verses that show proper worship of Jesus Christ:

"saying with a loud voice, "Worthy is the Lamb who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing!" And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!" And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped." [Rev 5:12-14 ESV]

"And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."" [Heb 1:6 ESV]

"And going into the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh." [Mat 2:11 ESV]

"And they worshiped him and returned to Jerusalem with great joy," [Luk 24:52 ESV]

"Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!"" [Jhn 20:28 ESV]

These are just a few verses to ponder then. If Jesus were an merely an angel, He would not have received worship.

60

The Question of the "Great Apostasy" and the Historical Continuity of Christianity

by aqwsed12345 in

1. the continuity and visibility of the church.

the true church must be continuous from the apostolic age.

there is no room in christianity for a "gap" or interruption of thousands of years during which true christianity ceased to exist and then was revived in the form of another movement.

LauraLynn

aqwsed12345:

You know, I agree with your well-thought-out apologetics in showing that the JWs are a false religious organization. It just seems to me though that in defending the Roman Catholic Church as "true" church it is following the same lines of reasoning that the JWs use to prove THEY are the "true" church. It's like substituting the Catholic Church for the "faithful and discreet slave"--I feel like you are just replacing one organization for another, when the bible is very clear that we are not saved by our church affiliation but by our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace.

You seem to be very adamant that a historical apostolic succession is needed to establish the validity of Christ's church and that in proving this, you conclude that the Catholic Church is the "one true church." You said:

"The deep understanding of theological issues is often complex and requires a thorough knowledge of Scripture and tradition. The interpretation of the Catholic Church, for example, is based on the continuity of apostolic teachings and the traditions of the Church Fathers, providing a reliable and consistent framework for interpretation."

But please consider: the religious leaders of Jesus' day had succession of high priests and the teachings of Moses, and they had tons of tradition to help them "understand" their own scriptures. Yet Jesus told them that:

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me, yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life." [Jhn 5:39–40]

"But Jesus answered them, "You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God." [Mat 22:29]

"'This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.' You leave the commandment of God and hold to the tradition of men." And he said to them, "You have a fine way of rejecting the commandment of God in order to establish your tradition!" [Mar 7:6–9]

So, how can you argue succession and tradition prove the Catholic Church is the only true church, when Jesus condemned the Pharisees and Sadducees who claimed succession from the teachings of Moses, the prophets, and their learned rabbis? And used their tradition to nullify the commandments of God?

10

Thought For the Day - for PIMI JW's

by BoogerMan in

which name does the evil faithful slave's literature demand that you focus on - jehovah or jesus?.

do jesus & the bible agree with the org's obsession with the name 'jehovah', or was jesus just being presumptuous?

(matthew 10:22) and you will be objects of hatred by all people on account and whoever receives one such young child on the basis of my name receives me.... (matthew 18:20) for where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there i am in their midst.”.

LauraLynn

Excellent point. And to add to your good list, Peter, speaking of Jesus, said: "And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."" [Act 4:12]

And also, the apostle John writes: "but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." [Jhn 20:31]

And again, John in his first letter writes: "And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us." [1Jo 3:23 ESV]

From these 3 scriptures one can see not only that Jesus commands belief in His name, but our salvation depends upon it. When I was a JW, my faith was always directed toward the WT "faithful and discreet slave," and was programmed to think I'd be lost without them. To direct someone's trust away from Jesus is blatant and grievous error.

5

Distrust

by Gorb in

jw
friends

since the begin of this millennium, when i became pimo on the way to pomo, i started higher education and made some promotion that lead to a higher management position.. i'm a regional manager now, acting in a management team and stakeholder manager.. in this position, we do intense feedback, coaching trajects et cetera, that goes under the waterline.

a issue i have to deal with is distrust.

i made an analyse of myself and found out that i don't trust the intentions of many of my stakeholders.. i want to do something about this, to become a better person and making further progression.. could it be jw upbringing related?

LauraLynn

Gorb

Yes, I think the JW experience can leave us all pretty jaded about people's motives. But like anything, there should be an avoidance of going to extremes on one side of the ditch or the other--from distrusting everyone and their intentions to the other extreme of being overly trusting of fallible people. It sounds like you feel you are toward the distrust extreme and it is hindering your effectiveness as a manager.

I don't know where you are spiritually, but the bible is quite honest about the human heart's propensity toward self-centeredness, and therefore instructs us not to place our entire trust in man, but rather instructs us to place our entire trust in God, who as God, has perfect integrity. In light of this, that wisdom helps me consider a person's overall character--are they themselves trustworthy, are they hard workers, are they conscientious, etc. Like AtLeastImNot says, actions speak louder than words, and they respected the people that were honest and I'm assuming granted them a level of trust not available to the employees who acted like fools.

For me a big help in overcoming extreme distrust was forgiving people that have hurt me, and recognizing that "to err is human, to forgive divine." I think deep down my distrust of other people was rooted in the fear that if I could let myself be hurt or misled by another person that there was something wrong with my ability to judge correctly--I blamed it on myself--I kept questioning my own judgement. It seems my inclination is to remember all the times I get it wrong, and not the times I get it right.

Anyway, I don't know if any of this helps you or not, but it has helped me to have a more balanced view of other people, and myself for that matter.

8

Lost aoul

by LostSoulUK in

jw
friends

hi everyone, i just joined and i have been lost a long time, growing up i was a witness with my mum.

i walked away when i was older, did drugs, sex, travelling all my life never stopping anywhere more than 3 months my entire life, relationship after relationship, pain and hurt after pain and hurt.

i always felt like there was something missing, and tried to find what it was.

LauraLynn

LostSoulUK

First, I commend you for your honesty. It can be quite hard to be real with other people, and even ourselves for that matter. I'd like to encourage you, because I have had in some respects a similar experience in life with things that seemed "fun" at the time but ultimately hurt me. I eventually learned the hard way that those bad experiences are ultimately a good thing to teach us not to repeat our mistakes, kind of like touching a hot burner on a stove--you learn to not do that again!

I remember a time in my life when someone asked me where I was in my spiritual journey. I told them point blank that I was lost. He told me that because I recognized it, that I was actually closer to God than most people think they are because I was searching for Him or something that could fill the gaping hole in my heart. Wanting to change your life and be someone new is really the key--kind of like the familiar adage, "The first step to getting help is admitting you have a problem." So I want to encourage you to keep seeking truth.

In reading your post, it struck me that you seem to gravitate to things that are harmful to yourself. I don't know if this is true for you, but for me it was partly because I had a lot of unresolved anger toward people and ultimately myself. I was mad at the JWs for their awful treatment when I tried to go back (a big mistake for me), mad at a family member for their emotional abuse, and mad at God for allowing all this to happen to me. Yet I think I was turning my anger inward by choosing a harmful lifestyle.

I was surprised that you said you felt hate, pain, and misery inside when you went to a Christian church. May I ask what kind of church this was and why you felt that way? This is where our experiences diverge, as I felt just the opposite when I finally found a loving church home--I felt loved and forgiven--by God, by people, and myself.

4

Just Curious: Do JWs Count Their Time Spent in Chat Forums "Witnessing?"

by LauraLynn in

hi, all--i was just wondering, since there is emphasis on counting your witnessing hours in the jws, if they indeed count their time here and in other chat forums?

i happened to check the jws own chat forum, and it is closed to non-members.

i thought that it was interesting that they are free to come here, but we are not free to go there to discuss the bible.

LauraLynn

Hi, nicolaou--This is the forum I found when I searched. Here is the link to sign up (but please don't!) https://jwtalk.net/register/

They want you to answer all the questions to make sure someone's legit (and not an apostate or opponent). You are correct in saying they claim it is not "official," or directed by the GB (I wonder if for legal reasons), but reading the membership policy it sure sounds like the GB behind a very carefully crafted mask!

https://jwtalk.net/topic/1450-jwtalk-community-membership-policy/

I am new to the site here, but have seen quite a few JWs participating in the forums, and they seem dyed in the wool members. Maybe they were older posts and the GB has now said "worldly" forums are a no-no?