thinker

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Posts by thinker

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  9

  God's Weapons !!!

  by thinker in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i think it is fair to say that whoever wrote genesis had a very limited scientific understanding of the world in which he lived.

  most of nature was a mystery to him.

  let us examine what he did "know"; namely, god lived in heaven, which was in the sky.

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  thinker

  Dear BluesBrother,
  Your reply has only reinforced my point. Most people who say the bible is "true" really mean it is truly symbolic. "True" to them is not the same as "literal".
  In the era of the bible writers, rainbows and lightning were truly miraculous, therefore the sole provence of God.
  In 1886 C.T. Russell wrote "The reproduction of living organisms,
  either animal or vegetable, is beyond our comprehension, as well as beyond our power--hence miraculous." (God's Divine Plan)
  In Russell's day reproduction was "miraculous" and the sole provence of God. Today the reproduction of humans (cloning) is not restricted by a lack of knowledge, but by man-made laws prohibiting the use of available knowledge.
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  21

  Rusell and Free Masons

  by Victor_E in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this is a serious inquiry of the facts of rusell and free masory.

  while i have read posts on here and other boards i would like to know more facts on this subject.

  to date this is what i know and i would appreciate knowing more.. 1. rusell often spoke in free mason temples.

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  thinker

  From Russell's book "New Creation":"We admonish the New Creation to have nothing whatever
  to do with any of these semi-religious societies, clubs,
  orders, churches; but to "Come out from amongst them,
  and be ye separate, and touch not the unclean thing." (2 Cor. 6:17)
  Their things, their worship, their teachings, their
  doctrines, are unclean to us, though they may not be unclean
  to themselves. The eyes of our understanding have
  been opened, and now to us all things appear in a new light,
  so that things which we once loved now we hate, and things
  which we once hated now we love." (pg 505)
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  21

  Rusell and Free Masons

  by Victor_E in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this is a serious inquiry of the facts of rusell and free masory.

  while i have read posts on here and other boards i would like to know more facts on this subject.

  to date this is what i know and i would appreciate knowing more.. 1. rusell often spoke in free mason temples.

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  thinker

  Victor,
  I've done alot of reasearch on this. You're right about C.T.R. speaking at Mason temples. He also spoke at churches of many different denominations. In one of his published sermons he said that masons were amazed at his knowledge of the masons despite the fact that he was not one. While he did seem to be knowledgable about them, I have seen no clear evidence that he was a member. Perhaps he merely wanted to recruit from their ranks...
  thinker
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  34

  Why the bible does'nt make sense to me

  by Leander in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  for some odd reason this morning when i woke up the first thing that came into my mind was the suffering and pain that humans deal with on a daily basis.

  again i'm not really sure what made me think about that so early in the morning.

  (maybe it was a dream i had).

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  thinker

  Interesting thread. It seems as though most everyone here equates belief in God with belief in the bible. My question is, Can someone believe in God without believing in the bible?
  To Leander: I would tell you that just because you cannot accept the bible as true and inspired doesn't mean you can't believe in God. To me, they are not one and the same.
  You may be interested in my explaination of the Flood story:
  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=17373&site=3
  thinker
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  9

  God's Weapons !!!

  by thinker in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i think it is fair to say that whoever wrote genesis had a very limited scientific understanding of the world in which he lived.

  most of nature was a mystery to him.

  let us examine what he did "know"; namely, god lived in heaven, which was in the sky.

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  thinker

  I think it is fair to say that whoever wrote Genesis had a very limited scientific understanding of the world in which he lived. Most of nature was a mystery to him.
  Let us examine what he did "know"; namely, God lived in heaven, which was in the sky. (Offerings to God were burned so that the smoke would carry the offering to heaven.)

  Assuming this is true, is it possible that if such a man were caught outside during a thunderstorm he might think God was angry? Rain, wind, thunder and lightning all coming down from heaven. And when the storm ended and the warm sun began to shine, would he think God was no longer angry?
  And what would he think if a bright arc of color appeared in heaven? Using his reasoning abilities he might assume this thing, which appeared out of nowhere; in heaven, belonged to God. He might compare it to things here on earth. To him it might resesmble a bow like the archers used. Could it be that the story of the Flood isn't really about a flood at all? Could it be just a way of explaining rainbows?
  If my assumptions are correct the author of Genesis thought a rainbow was God's bow ( a weapon ) which God had hung up on the wall of heaven as a sign of peace (after the violence of the storm).
  Ge 9:13 I set My bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Me and the earth.
  Ge 9:14 "And it shall come about, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud,
  Ge 9:16 "When the bow is in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth."

  If he believed God had a bow, he would likely think God had arrows also. These arrows would have been in use prior to the time God hung up his bow. What would these arrows be? Lightning!!!
  Following these assumptions, we should be able to find bible references to lightning as God's arrows.

  Psa77:17 The clouds poured out water: the skies sent out a sound: thine (God's) arrows also went abroad.

  2 Samuel 22:15
  He (God) shot arrows and scattered [the enemies], bolts of lightning and routed them.

  Psalm 18:14
  He shot his arrows and scattered [the enemies], great bolts of lightning and routed them.

  Psalm 144:6
  Send forth lightning and scatter [the enemies]; shoot your arrows and rout them.

  Psalm 64:7 But God shall shoot at them with an arrow; suddenly shall they be wounded.

  Num24:8 God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows.

  Deu32:23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I (God) will spend mine arrows upon them.

  Psa7:13 He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he (God) ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors.

  For me to believe the bible is true I would need to abandon my understanding of rainbows as refracted sunlight and lightning as a natural discharge of electricity. It seems clear to me that the bible says rainbows are God's bow which He uses to shoot lightning arrows down upon the earth!
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  17

  what purpose religion?

  by teejay in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  last night a program remembered the japanese attack on pearl harbor sixty years ago.

  amidst all the historical details, a story of a serviceman stood out.

  he was a youngster then, still in his teens and stationed in hawaii, when he sent his mom a card to let her know of his condition.

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  thinker

  The discussion my wife talks about above started because a born-again relative attempted to convert us. In her e-mail, I noticed a pattern which seemed to be a universal blueprint for bible belief. I call this the "building blocks of bible belief".
  1) Fear: the basic foundation of bible belief is fear. Many active JWs come here and start posting something along the lines of "you'll all be sorry when the buzzards are pecking the eyes out of your dead, burnt bodies at Armegedon". This BA Christian said, " There are eternal consequences for our decisions." and "There is a real devil." Fear of non-compliance and non-belief.
  2) Unquestioning faith: When reading the bible with an open mind, using logic and reason; I came to the conclusion that it is neither true nor inspired. Yet, many are convinced it IS true and inspired. Why the differences? Faith. The BAC says, " It is definitely a faith walk. Either the Bible is true or it isn’t. You can put your faith in it or you can’t." CT Russell in a very old Zion Watchtower spoke of these differences. He said, "However, as at first stated, all these things, while clear as crystal to those possessed of and taught by God's spirit, are obscure to all others who will find abundant opportunity for "stumbling at the Word, being disobedient". And, "The Scriptures are for and addressed to the Church--the saints and the household of faith; and their evidences are internal, not external..." And, " Let them read this paper, and (2) loan them MILLENNIAL DAWN, VOL. I., the first four chapters of which were specially written for the assistance of truth-seekers, who need first of all to have faith established in the Bible as a whole."

  True believers will then use logic and reason only if it justifies their faith. They cannot accept that logic and reason does not explain their faith; to do so would leave them with only fear and that is an unacceptable condition of living. Whenever something in the bible doesn't say what they hoped it would, they either ignore it or attach the label "symbolic" to it; interpreting the symbolism to fit their faith. Once we allow the labels "symbolic" and "literal" to be selectively attached to anything in the bible; it can mean just about anything. To me, the only difference between ALL the bible-based religions is where the label "symbolic" is applied and what that sybolism means. For example, not far from here one can find churches where the congregation regularly handle serpents and drink poison. They read that part of the bible and say "literal". Most christians disagree and say "symbolic". Skinhead churches in the pacific northwest use parts of the bible to justify their hatred and violence towards blacks, jews, and gays. These are extreme examples, but it seems clear to me that to believe, one first must have fear, then faith, and only then can logic and reason be used. The use of symolism is a necessary part of bible belief and causes divisions in the otherwise happy world of christiandom.

  thinker
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  87

  Heresy of the Month

  by thinker in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  heresy of the month (from a website).

  don't you hate it when someone you know comes up with some new thing that you have never heard about?

  you sit there in apparent ignorance as they pontificate about the proofs and merits of some idea so far beyond common knowledge that it can only be revealed by people of exceptional enlightenment such as they.

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  thinker

  Well everyone, it's been a long time; but TW and I are still practicing our "daily baptismals". I highly recommend it to all !! I have no doubt that it enriches our relationship greatly. No matter what else is going on in our lives we have this short time in the tub to look forward to. It's a time when there are no outside distractions, just one-on-one conversation and laughter.
  I'm curious, has anyone else been practicing this? Isn't it about time you start? And don't forget the post-baptismal celebration!

  thinker
  CEO & Co-founder
  Leaning Tower Bath and Shower Society
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  48

  !!ONE MORE ELDER FACING WTS EXECUTION !

  by exodus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  well, here it is, after almost 20 years 12 of those serving in position of responsibility it comes down to my spiritual execution(jw style).

  allow me to explain.

  for those who you who still remember me from h20 under the name truthexodus i came to post my experience as an elder of local congregation in nyc area.

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  thinker

  Exodus,
  From your post it seems clear that you have a conscience; this makes you unfit to be a JW.
  Good luck to you. Looking forward to more posts.

  thinker
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  1

  Tolerance & Doubt

  by thinker in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  what makes a person tolerant of others' views ?

  "the men who have fought for tolerance, whatever their differences, had all of them one thing in common; their faith was tempered by doubt; they might honestly believe that they themselves were right, but they never reached the point where that suspicion hardened into an absolute conviction.. they knew that the problem which faced them (the nature of god) was so vast that no one in his right senses would ever expect it to be solved.

  and while they might hope and pray that the road which they had taken would eventually lead them to a safe goal, they could never convince themselves that it was the only right one, that all other roads were wrong and that the enchanting by-paths which delighted the hearts of so many simple people were evil thoroughfares leading to damnation.".

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  thinker

  What makes a person tolerant of others' views ?
  "The men who have fought for tolerance, whatever their differences, had all of them one thing in common; their faith was tempered by doubt; they might honestly believe that they themselves were right, but they never reached the point where that suspicion hardened into an absolute conviction.
  They knew that the problem which faced them (the nature of God) was so vast that no one in his right senses would ever expect it to be solved. And while they might hope and pray that the road which they had taken would eventually lead them to a safe goal, they could never convince themselves that it was the only right one, that all other roads were wrong and that the enchanting by-paths which delighted the hearts of so many simple people were evil thoroughfares leading to damnation."
  Hendrik Van Loon 1925 "Tolerance"

  It is my opinion that deep down inside we all have doubts; no matter what our background or current status with the WT. Perhaps if we were strong enough to admit this we could become a little more tolerant of each other.

  p.s.
  Van Loon also mentions the cause of intolerance: FEAR
  "No matter what form or shape a persecution may take, it is caused by fear..."
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  18

  Met my first Elder after diassociation

  by aud8 in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  well i met my first witness (and it would have to be an elder who i always got on well with) last night after my disassociation 3 weeks ago and i was not prepared for how hard it felt.

  i had the most human reaction of recognising someone i knew and had to stop myself saying hi.

  he just rushed past me.

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  thinker

  Matt 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?