Wildeflower,
It's been my experience that JW's are not upset by changes in doctrine, most even welcome it! False prophesies can also be rationalized. I have a list of lies and deceptions which cannot be explained away so easily. It's pretty long, so I'll e-mail it to you.
thinker
thinker
JoinedPosts by thinker
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I am meeting with my father - HELP
by wildeflower inok here goes - after 15 years of unimaginable shit (wait, you guys can imagine!
) and a tearful phone conversation tonight with my mother & father, my father is willing to sit & discuss jehovah's witnesses with me (he actually sounds open).
i left the borg when i was 17. my father is an elder.
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thinker
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WT defines propaganda!
by thinker inthe following is from a watchtower.org webpage on propaganda.
my comments are in red.. http://www.watchtower.org/library/g/2000/6/22/article_03.htm.
"a fool will believe anything.
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thinker
Since you all enjoyed it, I thought you might like to see the related article. A definition is required first:
Websters dictionary:
Main Entry: pro·pa·gan·da
Etymology: New Latin, from Congregatio de propaganda fide Congregation for propagating the faith, organization established by Pope Gregory XV died 1623
Date: 1718
1 capitalized : a congregation of the Roman curia having jurisdiction over missionary territories and related institutions
2 : the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution, a cause, or a person
3 : ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause or to damage an opposing cause; also : a public action having such an effectFrom the official website watchtower.org:
Is the work of JW's propagandistic?
Some opponents of Jehovah's Witnesses have accused them of spreading Zionist propaganda. Others have charged that the ministry of the Witnesses promotes Communism. Still others have claimed that the work of Jehovah's Witnesses promotes the ideals and interests of "American imperialism." And there are those who assert that the Witnesses are anarchists, fomenting disorder with the aim of changing the social, economic, political, or legal order. Obviously, these conflicting accusations cannot all be true.
The WT starts by introducing a number of other subjects to confuse the main issue: PROPAGANDA, not communism, imperialism, or anarchy.
The simple fact is that Jehovah's Witnesses are none of the above. The work of the Witnesses is carried out in faithful obedience to Jesus Christ's mandate to his disciples: "You will be witnesses of me . . . to the most distant part of the earth." (Acts 1:8) Their work focuses solely and exclusively on the good news of the heavenly Kingdom—God's instrument for bringing peace to the whole earth.—Matthew 6:10; 24:14.
This "work" consists of tons of printed material, much of it propaganda.
Observers of Jehovah's Witnesses have found no evidence that this Christian community has ever been a force disruptive of the good order of any land.
Note the definition of propaganda: "the spreading of ideas, information, or rumor for the purpose of helping or injuring an institution,..." " ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one's cause..." Propaganda does not need to be "disruptive".
Many journalists, judges, and others have commented on the positive contributions that Jehovah's Witnesses have made to the communities in which they live. Consider some examples. After attending a convention of Jehovah's Witnesses, a reporter from southern Europe commented: "These are people with strong family ties, they are taught to love and to live by their conscience so as not to harm others."
Another journalist, formerly negative about the Witnesses, stated: "They live an exemplary life. They do not violate the standards of what is moral and right." A political scientist similarly remarked about the Witnesses: "They behave toward other people with profound kindness, love and gentleness."
This has nothing to do with what is printed by the WT!
Jehovah's Witnesses teach the rightness of submission to authority. As law-abiding citizens, they follow Bible standards of honesty, truthfulness, and cleanliness. They build good morals into their own families, and they help others to learn how they can do the same. They live peaceably with all men, not getting involved in disruptive demonstrations or political revolutions. Jehovah's Witnesses seek to be exemplary in obeying the laws of the human superior authorities, while they wait patiently on the Supreme Authority, the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, to restore perfect peace and righteous government to this earth.
While this describes the rank-and-file JW, it completely ignores the propaganda of the Organization.
At the same time, the work of the Witnesses is educational. In their own words:"Education shows you how to think. Propaganda tells you what to think.' Using the Bible as a basis, they teach people worldwide to reason on Bible principles and thereby develop right standards of conduct and moral integrity.They teach people to FOLLOW the GB's reasoning. They promote values that improve family life and help young people cope with their peculiar challenges. They shun family members who stop believing and I'd be careful about trusting them with my kid. They also help people to find the strength to overcome bad habits and to develop the ability to get along with others.They force you to stop whatever activity they determine is wrong by threats of shunning and only get along with other members of the religion. Such a work would hardly be termed "propaganda."None of the above even addresses what they print! As The World Book Encyclopedia says, in a climate where ideas circulate freely, "propaganda differs from education."Unfortunately, the religion is not "a climate where ideas circulate freely".
This very article is a fine example of PROAGANDA. -
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The 'tower and your TEETH
by thinker init is my contention that many of the actitivities prohibited or discouraged by the watchtower are used to control jw's time and money.
smoking is just one example.
the wt claims the prohibition on smoking is for the good health of it's members.
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thinker
This page has been up for at least a year. i was searching for something else and saw the title. I had to see what it was about.
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Underage Membership - Legal Defense Against DF
by obiefernandez inthis topic was inspired by the can you sue the watchtower... http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=21122&site=3.
it appears that the legal defense of the society is based on voluntary association, and based on that membership a person is by law subject to the eclessiastical tribunals (judicial committees) of jehovah's witnesses.
it immediately brings to mind the fact that many of us began association or were baptized while still minors.
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thinker
obiefernandez,
The WT said this:
"As regards the alleged involvement of children, the [WatchTower Bible and tract Society] submits that children cannot become members of the association but only participate, together with their parents, in the religious activities of the community."
{Sworn testimony submitted by the Society in evidence before the European Human Rights Commission Jul 3 1997}It seems then that baptism as a minor does not consistute membership.
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WT defines propaganda!
by thinker inthe following is from a watchtower.org webpage on propaganda.
my comments are in red.. http://www.watchtower.org/library/g/2000/6/22/article_03.htm.
"a fool will believe anything.
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thinker
The following is from a watchtower.org webpage on propaganda. My comments are in red.
http://www.watchtower.org/library/g/2000/6/22/article_03.htm"A fool will believe anything."—PROVERBS 14:15, TODAY'S ENGLISH VERSION.
THERE is a difference—a big difference—between education and propaganda. Education shows you how to think. Propaganda tells you what to think. Good educators present all sides of an issue and encourage discussion. Propagandists relentlessly force you to hear their view and discourage discussion. Often their real motives are not apparent. They sift the facts, exploiting the useful ones and concealing the others. They also distort and twist facts, specializing in lies and half-truths. Your emotions, not your logical thinking abilities, are their target.
August 1, 2001 Watchtower
How to Make Your Advancement Manifest.
First, since “oneness” is to be observed, a mature Christian must be in unity and full harmony with fellow believers as far as faith and knowledge are concerned. He does not advocate or insist on personal opinions or harbor private ideas when it comes to Bible understanding.
The propagandist makes sure that his message appears to be the right and moral one and that it gives you a sense of importance and belonging if you follow it. You are one of the smart ones, you are not alone, you are comfortable and secure—so they say.
*** w71 5/15 308 The Good News That Unites Mankind ***
So it is, in this twentieth century, that the unifying message of God’s Word is being brought to the people by word of mouth and printed page. While men may feel that without dissent nothing will improve, we can say with assurance that when the Creator of the universe, Jehovah God, speaks and people of all walks of life in all areas of the earth listen, then they can work in unity without dissent, without wrangling, without division.
How can you protect yourself from the types of people that the Bible calls "profitless talkers" and "deceivers of the mind"? (Titus 1:10) Once you are familiar with some of their tricks, you are in a better position to evaluate any message or information that comes your way. Here are some ways to do this.
Be selective: A completely open mind could be likened to a pipe that lets just anything flow through it—even sewage. No one wants a mind contaminated with poison. Solomon, a king and educator in ancient times, warned: "Anyone inexperienced puts faith in every word, but the shrewd one considers his steps." (Proverbs 14:15) So we need to be selective. We need to scrutinize whatever is presented to us, deciding what to accept and what to reject.
August 1, 2001 Watchtower
Rather, he has complete confidence in the truth as it is revealed by Jehovah God through his Son, Jesus Christ, and “the faithful and discreet slave.” By regularly taking in the spiritual food provided “at the proper time”—through Christian publications, meetings, assemblies, and conventions—we can be sure that we maintain “oneness” with fellow Christians in faith and knowledge.—Matthew 24:45.However, we do not want to be so narrow that we refuse to consider facts that can improve our thinking. How can we find the right balance? By adopting a standard with which to measure new information. Here a Christian has a source of great wisdom. He has the Bible as a sure guide for his thinking. On the one hand, his mind is open, that is, receptive to new information. He properly weighs such new information against the Bible standard and fits what is true into his pattern of thinking. On the other hand, his mind sees the danger of information that is entirely inconsistent with his Bible-based values.
*** w81 12/1 27 The Path of the Righteous Does Keep Getting Brighter *** Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using, we will not progress along the road to life, no matter how much Bible reading we do.
Use discernment: Discernment is "acuteness of judgment." It is "the power or faculty of the mind by which it distinguishes one thing from another." A person with discernment perceives subtleties of ideas or things and has good judgment.
Using discernment, we will be able to recognize those who are merely using "smooth talk and complimentary speech" in order to "seduce the hearts of guileless ones." (Romans 16:18) Discernment enables you to discard irrelevant information or misleading facts and distinguish the substance of a matter. But how can you discern when something is misleading?
*** w54 8/15 510 Questions from Readers ***
Christians do not debate with dissenters in their own congregation, knowing it can deteriorate into degrading bickering and quarreling…Put information to the test: "Beloved ones," said John, a first-century Christian teacher, "do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions." (1 John 4:1) Some people today are like sponges; they soak up whatever they come across. It is all too easy to absorb whatever is around us.
*** w83 1/15 22 Exposing the Devil's Subtle Designs ***
21 How is such independent thinking manifested? A common way is by questioning the counsel that is provided by God’s visible organization.
But it is far better for each individual personally to choose what he will feed his mind. It is said that we are what we eat, and this can apply to food for both the body and the mind. No matter what you are reading or watching or listening to, test to see whether it has propagandistic overtones or is truthful.
"The blood in any person is in reality the person himself.. poisons due to personal living, eating and drinking habits .. The poisons that produce the impulse to commit suicide, murder, or steal are in the blood. Moral insanity, sexual perversions, repression, inferiority complexes, petty crimes - these often follow in the wake of blood transfusion." {WT Sep 1 1961 564}
Moreover, if we want to be fair-minded, we must be willing to subject our own opinions to continual testing as we take in new information. We must realize that they are, after all, opinions. Their trustworthiness depends on the validity of our facts, on the quality of our reasoning, and on the standards or values that we choose to apply.
Ask questions: As we have seen, there are many today who would like to 'delude us with persuasive arguments.' (Colossians 2:4) Therefore, when we are presented with persuasive arguments, we should ask questions.
First, examine whether there is bias. What is the motive for the message? If the message is rife with name-calling and loaded words, why is that? Loaded language aside, what are the merits of the message itself? Also, if possible, try to check the track record of those speaking. Are they known to speak the truth? If "authorities" are used, who or what are they? Why should you regard this person—or organization or publication—as having expert knowledge or trustworthy information on the subject in question? If you sense some appeal to emotions, ask yourself, 'When viewed dispassionately, what are the merits of the message?'
AW 22/3/93
"The Watchtower, the official journal of Jehovah's Witnesses has said: "We have not the gift of prophecy". Jehovah's Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus' second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. Never in these instances, however, did they presume or originate predictions "in the name of Jehovah". Never did they say "These are the words of Jehovah".
Do not just follow the crowd: If you realize that what everybody thinks is not necessarily correct, you can find the strength to think differently.
Douglas Walsh trial Nov. 1954
Q. That was the publication of false prophesy?
A. That was the publication of a false prophesy, it was a false statement or an erronious statement in fulfilment of a prophesy that was false or erronious.
Q. And that had to be believed by the whole of Jehovah's Witnesses?
A. Yes, because you must understand we must have unity, we cannot have disunity with a lot of people going every way, an army is supposed to march in step.
While it may seem that all others think the same way, does this mean that you should? Popular opinion is not a reliable barometer of truth. Over the centuries all kinds of ideas have been popularly accepted, only to be proved wrong later. Yet, the inclination to go along with the crowd persists. The command given at Exodus 23:2 serves as a good principle: "You must not follow after the crowd for evil ends."
Q. If a member of Jehovah's Witnesses took the view himself that that prophesy was wrong and said so he would be disfellowshipped?
A. Yes, if he said so and kept persisting in creating trouble, because if the whole organisation believes one thing, even though it be erronious and somebody else starts on his own trying to put his ideas across then there is disunity and trouble, there cannot be harmony, there cannot be marching. When a change comes it should come from the proper source, the head of the organisation, the governing body, not from the bottom upwards, because everybody would have ideas, and the organisation would disintegrate and go in a thousand different directions. Our purpose
is to have unity.
Q. Unity at all costs?
A. Unity at all costs, because we believe and are sure that Jehovah God is using our organisation, the governing body of our organisation to direct it, even though mistakes are made from time to time.
True Knowledge Versus Propaganda
Previously, it was mentioned that the Bible is a sure guide for clear thinking. Jehovah's Witnesses unequivocally subscribe to Jesus' statement to God: "Your word is truth." (John 17:17) This is so because God, the Author of the Bible, is "the God of truth."—Psalm 31:5.
Yes, in this age of sophisticated propaganda, we can confidently look to Jehovah's Word as the source of truth. Ultimately this will protect us from those who want to 'exploit us with counterfeit words.'—2 Peter 2:3."It is a serious matter to represent God and Christ in one way, then find that our understanding of the major teachings and fundamental doctrines of the Scriptures was in error, and then after that, to go back to the very doctrines that, by years of study, we had thoroughly determined to be in error. Christians cannot be vacillating - 'wishy washy' - about such fundamental teachings. What confidence can one put in the sincerity or judgment of such persons?" {WT May 15 1976 298}
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The 'tower and your TEETH
by thinker init is my contention that many of the actitivities prohibited or discouraged by the watchtower are used to control jw's time and money.
smoking is just one example.
the wt claims the prohibition on smoking is for the good health of it's members.
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thinker
It is my contention that many of the actitivities prohibited or discouraged by the Watchtower are used to control JW's time and money.
Smoking is just one example. The WT claims the prohibition on smoking is for the good health of it's members. I suggest they want your tobacco money in their own pocket. As proof, I submit the following article from the official watchtower website:"ORTHODONTICS
What Is Involved?"
http://www.watchtower.org/library/g/1998/4/8/article_06.htmWhy would a religion care about ORTHODONTICS !???
1) Orthodontics can be used for:
a) Improving your appearance
b) Correcting a health problem2) Orthodondtics is EXPENSIVE !
After a lenghty and boring explanation of what is involved, the WT concludes it's article with the following:
Today, orthodontics can satisfy many of the needs of those who have tooth and jaw problems, including those who desire to smile without being self-conscious about their teeth. Of course, whether a person decides to make use of orthodontics or not is a personal decision.
Note how those wishing to straighten their teeth for appearances only are separated:For the time being, mankind has to reckon with physical imperfections, some of which may be alleviated by corrective measures. Nevertheless, we can look forward to the time in God's new world when he will eliminate completely and permanently all the effects of imperfection, including those of the mouth. Then, in that new system of perfect health, each of us will be able to offer with confidence a warm, friendly smile to everyone we meet.
"... can satisfy many of the needs of those who have tooth and jaw problems, including those who desire to smile without being self-conscious about their teeth.Note how a "true christian" might get the idea that his money might be better spent by giving it to the WT to ensure his ticket to the "new world":
"Nevertheless, we can look forward to the time in God's new world when he will eliminate completely and permanently all the effects of imperfection, including those of the mouth."Maybe they should just "wait on Jehovah":
"Then, in that new system of perfect health, each of us will be able to offer with confidence a warm, friendly smile to everyone we meet."The meaning seems clear to me. While it is a "personal decision", those considering spending money on othodontics for aesthetic reasons only may want to " look forward to the time in God's new world when he will eliminate completely and permanently all the effects of imperfection" and send money to the organization instead.
The only reason to include this article is to discourage those considering expensive, non-essential proceedures. In plain English: they want that money for themselves! -
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Answer from a JW friend about blood
by uncle_onion inthis is what a jw friend sent to me.
i had got him to read the latest letters on blood that were posted last week.i can t believe he read them.
this is his reply (typos and all).
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thinker
"What is forbidden?
This is a complex question. As you may know the WTS still prohibits whole blood and certain blood components namely, red cells, white cells, platelets and plasma. But here is the key: they allow everything inside of these components to be used.If you discount the membranes of the red cells, white cells and platelets, they are allowing somewhere between 97 and 98% of the blood. However, the membrane is stroma (protein/enzyme) and as a fraction it too would be permitted. So technically the WTS permits 100% of the blood in fractionated form." (from AJWRB.org)
If God said, "Don't eat eggs.", the Watchtower policy would be that egg whites were OK and egg yolks were OK; just don't eat them together.
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33 Questions
by Yadirf inthe moody bible instititute wrote the watchtower society asking for a debate on the radio.
brooklyn sent them a list of 33 questions and stated that if they could not answer them, there was no use in debating.
23. was one penalty passed against his soul and another against his body?.
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thinker
Now, a dozen questions for the GB:
1) When did God sell the Great Pyramid to the devil?
2) Who do we thank for getting the demons out of aluminum?
3) When did God move heaven from the Pleides?
4) Where is it now?
5) Were the prophets mad when you sold their house?
6) Where will they live now?
7) Does the word "generation" give you nightmares?
8) If you really believed in 1975, then why did you spend so much time on reorganizing the organization that year?
9) What scripture says that blood and it's major parts are prohibited, but the parts of the parts (fractions) are not?
10) If God said, "Don't eat eggs."; could you separate the egg whites and yolks and eat them ?
11) Do the words, "They appointed themselves judges and were prone to condemn anyone who did not meet their self-righteous standards. Their superior attitude and exaggerated self-esteem generated a need to control other people." sound familiar? (WT 10/15/1995)
12) Give one example of where the concerns and well-being of rank-and-file witnesses was more important than the image of the organization. -
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33 Questions
by Yadirf inthe moody bible instititute wrote the watchtower society asking for a debate on the radio.
brooklyn sent them a list of 33 questions and stated that if they could not answer them, there was no use in debating.
23. was one penalty passed against his soul and another against his body?.
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thinker
Answers to 33 questions:
1. Was Eden on earth or in Heaven?
Find the angels with the flaming swords and we'll both know. (Gen. 3:24 )2. Was Adam created mortal or immmortal?
Doesn't matter really; since God already knew what was gonna happen.3. If Adam had not sinned, would he ever had died?
See above answer.4. If he had lived forever, would you have called it immortality?
That seems to fit the definition.5. On account of sin, he did die, so does not that prove he was mortal?
Adam lived 930 years, just shy of immortal. (Gen. 5:5)6. Is there a difference between eternal life and immortality?
Time is relative, so not really.7. Can a man live eternally and yet be mortal?
Sure. Angels are eternal. According to the WT: Jesus was an angel, yet was also mortal.8. If Adam had not sinned and then brought death upon himself, where would he have spent endless life?
I would hope it was not on earth, since it would be overflowing with desendents before too long!9. Would he have lived forever in the earthly paradise where he was placed, or would he later got to Heaven?
Ask God. My guess is God would scoop up a few now and then when earth started getting crowded.10. If Adam could not go to Heaven without dying and could not die without sinning, does not that prove that sin and death are a blessing to mankind?
It's all part of "God's divine plan" so, it must be a blessing.11. Did Adam and his race lose an earthly home or heavenly?
Find the angel with the flaming sword. He'd know!12. If Jesus Christ came to restore to the race that which was lost through Adam's fall, what will be restored?
Acccording to the WT, Michael/Jesus created everything. Then everybody but Noah and his kin get wiped out. Seems like the original plan wasn't working so well. Then it's still not right so the guy who created the whole mess has to come down to fix it personally. Then He has to come again in 1914 in invisble form after deciding not to show up invisibly in 1874. And someday SOON He's gonna come again and REALLY fix things. Seems like it would have been easier to just do it right the first time; but what do I know?13. Was Adam a single individual or two in one?
Two. Adam and Eve were clones. See Gen. 2:2114. If Adam was composed of two parts--soul and body--which part was the real Adam?
If Jesus was the angel Michael which part was Michael?15. Which part was it that could think, feel, and understand and be responsible for its conduct?
The part he got when he ate from the tree of knowledge, of course! (Gen. 3:5) Until then he didn't even know he was naked!16. Which part was it that sinned--soul or body?
You mean to say that one part can sin while the other doesn't?17. If it was the body that sinned and was condemned, why is it said that souls have to be saved?
So the Watchtower has a reason to exist?18. If it was the soul that sinned and was condemned, why did the innocent body have to suffer for it?
If God knew Adam wasn't gonna listen, why make the damned tree in the first place? It wasn't like there wasn't anything else on the planet to eat.19. In Gen. 2:17, what part of Adam did God refer to when He said, "Thou shalt surely die!"?
Adam didn't have any knowledge yet, so we really don't know!20. What did the word "Thou" refer to in Gen.2:17?
It's a fancy word for "you". (I thought these guys were supposed to be bible experts.)21. If you say soul, then what does "Thou" refer to in Gen. 3:19?
You again.22. How many different penalties were passed upon Adam?
None. Eating fruit is not a disfellowshipping offense.23. Was one penalty passed against his soul and another against his body?
No penalty.24. Then explain Ezekial 18:4 and Eccl. 9:5, 10.
You wouldn't believe me anyway, I'm apostate.25. Is the penalty mentioned at Gen.2:17 different from the one mentioned at Gen. 3:19?
Was there ever a JC hearing? Was Adam disfellowshipped and shunned?26. If there was just one penalty, what was it?
See #23.27. Does the Bible say it was death or burning in endless life in Hell?
See #23.28. Suppose after the Adamic sin, no Savior came, where would the human race spend eternity?
Jesus had to come, He created the mess in the first place.29. Did Jesus really die on the cross?
Yes, but Michael didn't.30. Or was it just His body that died?
Just the body, the angel was doing fine.31. If Jesus had an immortal soul that did not die, and that immortal soul was Jesus, why not say that we are misinformed about Jesus dying for sinners, just the house he lived in died to save the house that men live in and the real Jesus did not die, and the real man is not saved?
If Jesus was really Michael wasn't He immortal?32.When Jesus rasied Lazarus of Bethany from the dead, where did Lazarus come from?
From the question, I must assume he came from Bethany!33. If the real Lazarus had been in Heaven for four days, and then came back to live with his sisters again, can you explain why he never told them a word about his wonderful trip and what he saw up there?
Maybe it was a secret, like GB meetings. -
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SEX, LIES, DEMONS, & APOSTASY
by You Know inthe issue is as old as eden itself, that being: does god have the right to tell us what to do?
that core question, more than anything else, defines what jehovahs witnesses are about, in that we are outspoken advocates and supporters of jehovahs right as sovereign to require obedience from his creatures.
the flip side of that is, of course, rebellion against god, which is expressed in numerous ways and on all levels of society.
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thinker
Did I just read this correctly?
Why did God give us a "sinful" nature? Because "God is love," and because God wanted to create people in his "own image,"
God has a sinful nature?