Posts by thinker

3

Have you seen these poems?

by Simon in

from thinker's profile:.

http://www.geocities.com/avalon_dream/jehovahs_witness_poetry.

i particularly like the line:.

thinker

Thanks for the "plug" Simon!
Anyone having more poems, please e-mail to me.
Thanks,
thinker

1

What is TRUTH?

by thinker in

i've never been a jw, but i'm shunned by them because i married an ex-jw.

recently an acive-jw explained to me that the reason was that i was getting information about the wtbts from "untruthful sources".

with that in mind i present the following reprint:.

I've never been a JW, but I'm shunned by them because I married an ex-JW. Recently an acive-JW explained to me that the reason was that I was getting information about the WTBTS from "untruthful sources". With that in mind I present the following reprint:

"WHAT IS TRUTH?"
This question is one which every sincere Christian should ask and seek to answer. We should learn to love and value truth for its own sake; to respect and honor it by owning and acknowledging it wherever we find it and by whomsoever presented. A truth presented by Satan himself is just as true as a truth stated by God.
Perhaps no class of people are more apt to overlook this fact than the Christian. How often do they in controversy overlook and ignore truth presented by their opponents. This is particularly the case when arguing with an infidel. They feel at perfect liberty to dispute everything he says on religious subjects. This is not the correct principle. Many infidels are honest--as anxious to speak and believe the truth as are Christians--and if in converse with them we ignore truths which they may advance, we not only fail to convince them of our truths, but put an end to all hope of reaching them; for our failure to admit the evident truth which they advance begets in them contempt for the one who is not honest enough to admit one truth because he does not see how it can be reconciled to another. Accept truth wherever you find it, no matter [R9 : page 3] what it contradicts, and rely for ability to afterwards harmonize it with others upon "The Spirit of truth, which shall guide you into all truth," as Jesus promised.
Truth, like a modest little flower in the wilderness of life, is surrounded and almost choked by the luxuriant growth of the weeds of error. If you would find it you must be ever on the lookout. If you would see its beauty you must brush aside the weeds of error and the brambles of bigotry. If you would possess it you must stoop to get it.
Be not content with one flower of truth. Had one been sufficient there would have been no more. Gather ever, seek for more.
Weave them together as a garland --"Bind them on thee as a bride doeth." "Bind them about thy neck; write them upon the table of thine heart: so shalt thou find favor and good understanding in the sight of God and man." Prov. 3:3.
C. T. Russell

140

Just As In the Days of Noah

by Farkel in

since the bible makes it clear that jesus believed in the scriptural account of the flood and since the evidence that a worldwide flood as described in that same scriptural account would have been virtually impossible, why should anyone trust jesus to be man's redeemer and the only begotten son of god?.

farkel

thinker

Yes indeed, that's just how it happened. Then God put away His arrows and hung His bow on the wall of heaven.

I think it is fair to say that whoever wrote Genesis had a very limited scientific understanding of the world in which he lived. Most of nature was a mystery to him.
Let us examine what he did "know"; namely, God lived in heaven, which was in the sky. (Offerings to God were burned so that the smoke would carry the offering to heaven.)
Assuming this is true, is it possible that if such a man were caught outside during a thunderstorm he might think God was angry? Rain, wind, thunder and lightning all coming down from heaven. And when the storm ended and the warm sun began to shine, would he think God was no longer angry?
And what would he think if a bright arc of color appeared in heaven? Using his reasoning abilities he might assume this thing, which appeared out of nowhere; in heaven, belonged to God. He might compare it to things here on earth. To him it might resesmble a bow like the archers used. Could it be that the story of the Flood isn't really about a flood at all? Could it be just a way of explaining rainbows?
If my assumptions are correct the author of Genesis thought a rainbow was God's bow ( a weapon ) which God had hung up on the wall of heaven as a sign of peace (after the violence of the storm).
Ge 9:13 I set My bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Me and the earth.
Ge 9:14 "And it shall come about, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud,
Ge 9:16 "When the bow is in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth."

If he believed God had a bow, he would likely think God had arrows also. These arrows would have been in use prior to the time God hung up his bow. What would these arrows be? Lightning!!!
Following these assumptions, we should be able to find bible references to lightning as God's arrows.

Psa77:17 The clouds poured out water: the skies sent out a sound: thine (God's) arrows also went abroad.

2 Samuel 22:15
He (God) shot arrows and scattered [the enemies], bolts of lightning and routed them.

Psalm 18:14
He shot his arrows and scattered [the enemies], great bolts of lightning and routed them.

Psalm 144:6
Send forth lightning and scatter [the enemies]; shoot your arrows and rout them.

Psalm 64:7 But God shall shoot at them with an arrow; suddenly shall they be wounded.

Num24:8 God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows.

Deu32:23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I (God) will spend mine arrows upon them.

Psa7:13 He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he (God) ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors.

14

does the bible condem smoking??

by master chief in

jw
friends

think about it if the bible says we must present our bodies as a living sacrifice to god and we must be holy because god is holy is that really possible, well i would say no and do you wanna no why "well im gonna tell you anyway".well think about driving our cars we r deliberately polluting the earth which god condems,and what about the food we eat which contaminates our bodies,which i think would really corrupt our bodies,and think about it we are imperfect according to the bible so how can we make ourselves holy.also imagine a jw has aids and then is prescibed a drug which can corrupt our bodies but helps the patient with his suffering (ie:ganga is given to aids sufferers to help them to regain appetite for eating)but i suppose that would be ok for that purpose.one more thing for the last few months ive been coughing a lot and i havent smoked for years but guess what i smoked a menthol fag today and voila my coughing dissapeared so do you think the fag helped to cure this problem mmmmm i wonder if that is a sin??

?

thinker

I posted this long ago, but it seems to fit here as well:
It is my contention that many of the actitivities prohibited or discouraged by the Watchtower are used to control JW's time and money.
Smoking is just one example. The WT claims the prohibition on smoking is for the good health of it's members. I suggest they want your tobacco money in their own pocket. As proof, I submit the following article from the official watchtower website:

"ORTHODONTICS
What Is Involved?"
http://www.watchtower.org/library/g/1998/4/8/article_06.htm

Why would a religion care about ORTHODONTICS !???
1) Orthodontics can be used for:
a) Improving your appearance
b) Correcting a health problem

2) Orthodondtics is EXPENSIVE !

After a lenghty and boring explanation of what is involved, the WT concludes it's article with the following:

Today, orthodontics can satisfy many of the needs of those who have tooth and jaw problems, including those who desire to smile without being self-conscious about their teeth. Of course, whether a person decides to make use of orthodontics or not is a personal decision.
For the time being, mankind has to reckon with physical imperfections, some of which may be alleviated by corrective measures. Nevertheless, we can look forward to the time in God's new world when he will eliminate completely and permanently all the effects of imperfection, including those of the mouth. Then, in that new system of perfect health, each of us will be able to offer with confidence a warm, friendly smile to everyone we meet.

Note how those wishing to straighten their teeth for appearances only are separated:
"... can satisfy many of the needs of those who have tooth and jaw problems, including those who desire to smile without being self-conscious about their teeth.

Note how a "true christian" might get the idea that his money might be better spent by giving it to the WT to ensure his ticket to the "new world":
"Nevertheless, we can look forward to the time in God's new world when he will eliminate completely and permanently all the effects of imperfection, including those of the mouth."

Maybe they should just "wait on Jehovah":
"Then, in that new system of perfect health, each of us will be able to offer with confidence a warm, friendly smile to everyone we meet."

The meaning seems clear to me. While it is a "personal decision", those considering spending money on othodontics for aesthetic reasons only may want to " look forward to the time in God's new world when he will eliminate completely and permanently all the effects of imperfection" and send money to the organization instead.
The only reason to include this article is to discourage those considering expensive, non-essential proceedures. In plain English: they want that money for themselves!

15

Questions for witnesses

by sleepy in

jw
friends

here's a list of questions i compiled a while ago, for any new ones or lurkers to answer if they can.. i'm sure theres plenty more that could be added.. questions?.

1. gentile times.. a. why do we believe in such a thing as the gentile times?

this arises as it is not specifically mentioned in the bible as described by jehovahs witnesses.. b. why do we calculate that they start with the destruction of jerusalem in 607 b.c.e.?

thinker

YK: History is not an exact science. It is open to interpretation and even manipulation. The Watchtower has just as much right as the next guy to offer their opinion.

Just because it happens to fit a preconceived idea about 1914 doesn't mean it was manipulated in any way, right?

YK: That’s not true. None of the fundamental teachings have changed. They have only been refined, which is to be expected.

Note: Fundamental teachings:
1. No Hell
2. Paradise on earth
3. Jesus was an angel
Everything else is subject to change and should therefore be a matter of conscience!

YK: The apostles originally had a lot of childish ideas too. Paul used the illustration at Corinthians the 13th chapter about “when I was a babe, I used to speak as a babe…” to illustrate how the congregation goes through a growth process until it reaches maturity. The same process is evident in modern times and when Christ arrives, as an organization at least, we will finally achieve full-grown stature.

This excuse could apply to ANY religion!

YK: Yes and no. Paul said to observe the oneness of the spirit. So if a Christian believes that what the Society is teaching is wrong on a particular point then they need to be true to their own conscience as far as what they teach in their personal ministry. But, at the same time it is possible and even necessary to hold two contradictory opinions simultaneously, at least until a resolution is obtained. It is not either or. It is not that unless we teach the whole truth and nothing but the truth than our organization is a fraud. That’s not the way it works. What I mean is that Jehovah’s Witnesses can still be Jehovah’s people in spite of error, shortcomings and transgressions. Observing the oneness of the spirit in faith would prevent one with contrary views from disturbing others unnecessarily with his issues. In the end each of us must wrestle with our own angel in order to finally get the blessing Jehovah holds out to us.

ANY religion could be "Jehovah's people in spite of error, shortcomings and transgressions."

d. Is blood more sacred than life?
YK: No. But they in effect take something that doesn’t belong to them, but that God claims as his own. Adam and Eve apparently rationalized that taking God’s special fruit wasn’t any big deal---but it was.

Then there should be no problem with accepting YOUR OWN blood during an operation!

5

WARNING! Poetry Ahead..

by thinker in

tonight, for your listening enjoyment, we bring you an original work by thinker thinkerton.

enjoy!.

faithful & discreet truth by thinker.

thinker

I don't consider myself artistic, but once in a while the words just flow. For your further entertainment:

Changing Channels
by Thinker
-----------------------------

"The things we do
are good for you.
Remember where it came."

But looking back
I see the fact
that nothing is the same.

"We have the truth
and nothing else.
So what if we do lie?"

On the 3rd of Rome
in the 7th way
a lie is still a lie.
(Romans 3:7)

"We are just men;
come back again
to Jehovah's perfect corps."

You are just men;
and then again,
perhaps so am I.

"We have the truth
and no one else,
except the hundred forty-four."

The truth, my friend
is for every hand
that reaches for the door.
For ev'ry ear
that wants to hear,
and ev'ry eye and more.

5

WARNING! Poetry Ahead..

by thinker in

tonight, for your listening enjoyment, we bring you an original work by thinker thinkerton.

enjoy!.

faithful & discreet truth by thinker.

thinker

Tonight, for your listening enjoyment, we bring you an original work by Thinker Thinkerton. Enjoy!

faithful & discreet truth by Thinker
----------------------------

Blood on a torture stake
pierces the heart of innocents.

Shammed & scammed sheep
barbequed over the pit of Image and Number.

"Faithful friends", they say "until the end of time,
until your dying day...
or until you change your mind."

Discreet about all they say or do,
forever did or shall.
Days and days will it go on.
Tell me; "WHO'S the slave, now??"

3

theocratic warfare scripturally WRONG.

by thinker in

the watchtower says it's ok to lie if it's "to protect the interests of god's cause":.

*** w60 6/1 351 questions from readers *** .

from time to time letters are received asking whether a certain circumstance would justify making an exception to the christian's obligation to tell the truth.

thinker

The watchtower says it's OK to lie if it's "to protect the interests of god's cause":

*** w60 6/1 351 Questions from Readers ***
• From time to time letters are received asking whether a certain circumstance would justify making an exception to the Christian's obligation to tell the truth. In reply to these the following is given:

God's Word commands: "Speak truth each of you with his neighbor." (Eph. 4:25) This command, however, does not mean that we should tell everyone who asks us all he wants to know. We must tell the truth to one who is entitled to know, but if one is not so entitled we may be evasive ... As a soldier of Christ he is in theocratic warfare and he must exercise added caution when dealing with God's foes. Thus the Scriptures show that for the purpose of protecting the interests of God's cause, it is proper to hide the truth from God's enemies.

But the bible says:

Rom3:7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?translation: Even a lie that glorifies God is wrong!
Rom3:8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

27

Can You Believe this crap?

by Farkel in

when caught red handed with 10 years of signed documents where your leaders swore to uphold and promote the interests of the very organization you have vilified as satan's instrument, you now say, "i don't see that as a sin.

because you were caught?

also, if the proof is only "supposed," then where's a solid rebuttal to that proof without the ad hominems and red herrings?.

thinker

Let's try this. THIS IS MAKE-BELIEVE!!!!

News flash:
The Watchtower B,T,&S was rocked by the exposure that for ten years the GB has been performing a black mass in Bethel to call up the Devil himself!
A Watchtower spokesman, B.S. Tower; explains their actions this way: "In today's world many doubt the existance of Jehovah. By proving the existence of Jehovah's enemy, we will prove the existance of Jehovah Himself. Also, by coming face-to-face with Satan, we can learn more about him; in order to bring about his destuction."

Rank and file Jehovah's witnesses had this to say:

" You are assuming that the association of the Watchtower with Satan was a gross sin and not an innocent act in order to take advantage of a resource for upcoming articles."

"By your statements in this post you doubt the sincerity of the Watchtower's explanation on the reason they summoned Satan.
Why should we doubt our brothers?"

"Is calling up the devil the same as fornicating with the enemy? I don't think so."

"The brothers obviously saw a benefit without compromising our loyalty to Jehovah."

"They never said that Satan is Jehovah's instrument to bring peace and security to earth."

"I do not see the actions of these brothers as a "sin".

"I am sorry to point out that maybe on this issue, you have read too much into the "apostate reasoning" that is presented with the supposed "proof".

"If one looks at this "proof" without the demonized reasoning, then there is nothing to it."

Nothing can shake a cult member.

44

My visit to WT official site

by larc in

jw
friends

englishman has a thread about the generation idea and the apostates - most interesting.

after reading this, it occured to me it would be interesting to go to the official watchtower internet site and use there search function on different words and see what they had to say.

here is what i found out.. first of all, they do not show complete articles.

thinker

Thank you Waiting!!! That's quite a compliment.
ps. your facts are correct. I've never been a JW, never even met one before my wife!