Posts by thinker

22

Giving Thanks to Watchtower

by thinker in

i came to this forum in the later part of 2000 shortly after meeting my wife.

although i still come here often to read, i rarely post anymore.

recently two very fine people, an elder and his wife, left the wt.

Interesting points about those who follow the bible. Perhaps it is just the moral principles that are attractive to those people. No matter what someone might believe about Jesus, you've got to admire the way he lived his life and the principles he taught.

Peacefulpete,

"I feel I must add that members of high control groups/cults are ordinary people, good people,smart people,hopeful people. Arrogance, stupidity,cruelty etc, are not prerequisites to being mislead. Anyone is vulnerable to cults."

I did not mean to imply that those who stay in are "arrogant, stupid or cruel". In my experiences, those who willing join (as opposed to being raised JW) have a common background of emotional trauma that makes them more vulnerable to joining. If, as you say, "anyone is vulnerable to cults", then it would seem likely that the door-to-door recruitment efforts of JW's would have a much higher rate of success. My comments are based only on the limited number of JWs I know personally, but all those who joined were at a point in their lives where they were ready to turn their backs on "the world".

"Rather, people seek friendship, security, certainty, comfort, community and things like these that cults promise and for many within the cults appear to provide."

It would seem that those who already have a healthy relationship "in the world", would have no need for the false sense of "friendship, security, certainty, comfort..." that the WT offers.

thinker

22

Giving Thanks to Watchtower

by thinker in

i came to this forum in the later part of 2000 shortly after meeting my wife.

although i still come here often to read, i rarely post anymore.

recently two very fine people, an elder and his wife, left the wt.

thinker

Thanks Larc,

I miss those days too. Remember when this was just a small forum and every name was familiar?

Thinker

22

Giving Thanks to Watchtower

by thinker in

i came to this forum in the later part of 2000 shortly after meeting my wife.

although i still come here often to read, i rarely post anymore.

recently two very fine people, an elder and his wife, left the wt.

thinker

Thank you all for the kind replies.

To Gumby: "And you still believe in the bible?" No, I do not believe it's inspired. I think every religion twists and interprets to suit their own preconceived ideas.

To Always: Good luck to you.

Thinker

22

Giving Thanks to Watchtower

by thinker in

i came to this forum in the later part of 2000 shortly after meeting my wife.

although i still come here often to read, i rarely post anymore.

recently two very fine people, an elder and his wife, left the wt.

thinker

Hello All,

I'm sure most of you here don't know me. I came to this forum in the later part of 2000 shortly after meeting my wife. Although I still come here often to read, I rarely post anymore.

Recently two very fine people, an elder and his wife, left the WT. My wife was very close to these folks when she was "in" and missed talking with them after she left. I had the pleasure of meeting them twice before they shunned us completely. Their exit from the cult reinforces my belief that good and decent people who are mentally and emotionally capable will eventually leave the organization, with or without outside help. To me, the Watchtower is it's own worst enemy.

I first came here to learn more about the WT and it's policy of shunning ex-members. It just seemed unbelievable cruel and heartless. That one policy lead me to research EVERYTHING about the WT. I've cluttered up my computer with tons of information. I've visited hundreds of websites and learned the complete history of the JW's, all the failed predictions, changes in policy, deceptions and lies, scandals and cover-ups. None of this helped a single JW see the Org for what it is. However, it has helped me to warn countless numbers of non-witnesses.

Since I first came here almost three years ago, I've read more of the bible than ever before, including a number of books that didn't make it into the "official" bible. My thoughts on the bible haven't changed, but I now know more about why I believe what I do. My spiritual beliefs have become clearer because of an intense self-examination. I spent a few months on an active JW forum discussing their beliefs. The result was very predictable: closed minds who end a discussion when they run out of answers, no logic or reason, just blind obedience. I left that forum when an inactive JW was shunned on it. Amazingly, the active JW's asked me to stay!

As I said earlier, I don't post here very often, I've already discussed every aspect of JW history and scandal. The personal stories follow a predictable pattern of abuse and cruelty and have become hard to read. The one silver lining of these stories is the knowledge that good and decent people are leaving the WT in droves. It seems to me that those who stay in "for the duration" fall into two categories: those who could not function independently and those who don't really believe, but wish to exert control over others. There is also a group who don't believe but just play along to keep in contact with their family.

I used to think JW's were extremely devout people, but that's just the image they want to project. I've since learned that deep inside there are many active JWs who don't believe in the WT. The more I learn about JWs, the more hypocritical they seem. I've learned about my wife's father (an elder) and his adultry. I found out about how he knowingly laundered "dirt" money (a federal offense). I heard the story of a JW being baptised and still smoking tobacco and pot and living an immoral life. My wife was a JW for 38 years and knows the truth about the people who falsely don a cloak of rightousness. It seems clear to me that the WT is more about business than religion and each day more and more good people in the organization are discovering that on their own. Websites like this let them know that they're not alone and help ensure that they'll never be trapped again.

I'd like to thank the Watchtower. They've helped me examine my own beliefs and cemented my ideas about the bible, but more importantly, their policies are helping to free many fine people from the organization. That's something that all my research and facts could not do. For that I am grateful.

thinker

37

What IS Gods name anyway?

by NikL in

jw
friends

i am sure this topic has been brought up many times here but i don't always have the oppertunity to read all the posts so i am going to raise it again.. i went to the meeting the other day with my wife and this came up in the talk.

the speaker saying how improtant it was to have the right bible to get the most out of bible reading.

the right bible being the nwt of course because it uses the divine name which we all know is jehovah...or yahweh.

thinker

In reading Exodus chap. 3, I don't think God really gave His name. Moses asks, and God said literally "I will be what I will be". A name in jewish tradition defined a person. When a person was radically changed his name was changed as well. What God said was "I can be whatever I want to be"; therefore God is by defintion unnameable.

Read it closely. Moses says "These folks will want to know your name, what should I tell them?" God doesn't say "My name is...". Instead He says "Tell them ..." To me this indicates a less-than-direct answer.

In the Jewish faith God's name was secret and whispered only by the high priest once a year. If it was written right there in Ex. 3:14 every Jew would have known it.

Edited by - thinker on 22 January 2003 20:54:59

36

I have been challenged

by SpiceItUp in

jw
friends

.

my father has told me that if i can disprove the bible on any point he will discontinue beliveing in it.. i will be the first to admit that bible theology is not my strong point so i need any help that i can get.. thanks in advance

thinker

Re: Noah & flood

Ask him if he believes God uses His bow (a rainbow) to shoot arrows of lightning.

Hebrew Word: TXq
Transliterated Word: qesheth
Book to Display: Genesis
Verse Count: 7

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ge 9:13 I set My bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Me and the earth.
Ge 9:14 "And it shall come about, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud,
Ge 9:16 "When the bow is in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth."

ARROWS

Psa77:17 The clouds poured out water: the skies sent out a sound: thine arrows also went abroad.

2 Samuel 22:15
He shot arrows and scattered [the enemies], bolts of lightning and routed them.

Psalm 18:14
He shot his arrows and scattered [the enemies], great bolts of lightning and routed them.

Psalm 144:6
Send forth lightning and scatter [the enemies]; shoot your arrows and rout them.

Psalm 64:7 But God shall shoot at them with an arrow; suddenly shall they be wounded.

Num24:8 God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows.

Deu32:23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.

Psa7:13 He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors.

43

The Judge's Illegal takeover

by RR in

i have often wondered why the bible students did not pursue a lawsuit against j.f.

davies, auerbach & cornell.

davies, auerbach and cornell.

thinker

In "Faith on the March", ( http://www.e-cepher.com/books/fotm/ )
Rutherford's ELECTION in 1917 is described as "the Lord's will": "On January 6, 1917, J. F. Rutherford was elected president. There is no doubt in our minds that the Lord's will was done in this choice." pg71.

And yet I read:

"After Rutherford became president he was not long in seeing that the democratic arrangement was not the proper procedure for the Christian congregation at all." "the democratic method of electing elders and class officers would lead to serious difficulties, besides being out of harmony with Jehovah's way of doing things." pg155.

If elections are out of harmony with Jehovah's way, then how was the election of Rutherford the "Lords will"?

"Directors were not elected, as these had been elected by Russell for life. This he could do because he held the majority of votes although, according to the charter, they should have been reelected to that office every year as we learned later. ...Some of these thought they should succeed Russell and considered themselves better qualified for the position of president. The fact that Rutherford was approved by the shareholders of the Society...did not seem to impress them." pg72.

Why were they not impressed?

"The original congregation was theocratic. It was ruled by Jehovah God through Jesus Christ. The apostles were selected by Jesus, not elected by the disciples." "Hence, those who opposed or resisted the theocratic arrangement were not opposing or resisting men; they were striving against the spirit of God."pg157. "Some of these thought they should succeed Russell and considered themselves better qualified for the position of president." pg74. "Rutherford was not only an entirely different type of man, but he had come into association with our movement later than some of those who opposedhim." pg74. "The apostles and a few others were authorized by the governing body to appoint men who were already elders, that is, who were mature and well- established in the faith." pg157.

***********

So Russell's appointment of men (just as the apostles did) was against God's will. The election of Rutherford was God's will (despite elections being desrcibed as un-theocratic). Then the election of others in the organization was "against the spirit of God". "Jehovah God does not have any contradictory wills". pg137.

10

The Garden of Eden

by JNS2 in

jw
friends

when i started studying with the jws, the matter of whether the genesis account should be taken literally was glossed over quickly.

i think it was one of those "it'll be clearer later on, so let's continue with the study at hand".

it really was an issue for me even from the beginning because my work has always been in the science field.

thinker

Is Eden a literal place?

During the middle ages hundreds of world maps were based on the bible. Here's a close-up of one showing Eden:

http://www.henry-davis.com/MAPS/EMwebpages/224A.html

Also found on these maps are Gog and Magog in the North (Rev.) Many show an earth that's 6 parts land and 1 part water (II Esdras).

Columbus thought he'd found Eden:

"God made me the messenger of the new heaven and the new earth of which he spoke in the Apocalypse by St. John,...I am convinced that this is the spot of the earthly paradise whither no man can go but by God's permission..."

(Christopher Columbus 1498)

The bible is believed to be literal until it's proven otherwise. At that point the believer just changes his mind and says it's symbolic.

Edited by - thinker on 10 January 2003 7:53:48

23

Is the bible inspired?

by JH in

jw
friends

what part of the bible do you think is pure invention, and what part do you think is true.

thinker

To answer this question I think we should examine HOW inspiration occurs. Russell described how he was "inspired" by God:

Zions Watchtower June 1916
HARVEST GATHERINGS AND SIFTINGS
MANY are the inquiries relative to the truths presented in the STUDIES IN THE SCRIPTURES and THE WATCH TOWER, as to whence they came and how they developed to their present symmetrical and beautiful proportions. Were they the results of visions? Did God in some supernatural way grant the solution of these hitherto hidden mysteries of His Plan? Is the author of these writings more than an ordinary being? Does he claim supernatural wisdom or power? Or how comes this revelation of God's Truth?
No, the truths we present, were not revealed in visions and dreams or by God's audible voice; nor were they revealed all at once, but gradually...

We give the following history, not only because we have been urged to give a review of God's leadings...

...such points as are necessary to an understanding of our position and of the Lord's leadings.
(HOW DOES GOD LEAD?)

...all the little points of Divine favor to which was tested, prayers were answered, etc.,...
(BY DIVINE FAVOR AND ANSWERED PRAYER)

I was led gradually to see...
(BY GUIDED THINKING)

Seemingly by accident, one evening I dropped into a dusty, dingy hall in Allegheny, Pa.,...
(BY GUIDING OUR ACTIONS)

What I heard sent me to my Bible to study with more zeal and care than ever before, and I shall ever thank the Lord for the leading;...I soon began to see...
(BY GUIDED THINKING)

And here I gratefully mention assistance rendered by Brothers George Stetson and George Storrs, the latter the Editor of The bible Examiner, both now deceased. The study of the Word of God with these dear brethren led step by step into greener pastures...
(BY GUIDING US TO OTHERS)

The years following, to 1876, were years of continued growth in grace and in knowledge on the part of the handful of Bible students with whom I met in Allegheny. We progressed from our first crude and indefinite ideas of Restitution to clearer understanding of the details...During this time, too, we came to recognize the difference...
(MANY OTHERS CAN BE GUIDED AS WELL)

It was about January of 1876 that my attention was especially drawn to...
(BY GUIDING OUR ATTENTION)

It came about in this way: I received a paper called...
(BY GUIDING INFORMATION FROM OTHERS TO US)

Here was a new thought...
(BY IMPLANTING NEW THOUGHTS)

Anxious to learn from any quarter, whatever God had to teach...
(OUR UNDERSTANDING MAY COME FROM MANY SOURCES)

Being a person of positive convictions, and fully consecrated to the Lord, I at once saw ...
(BY GUIDED THINKING)

After a time I conceived the idea...
(BY IMPLANTING NEW THOUGHTS)

By noticing how quickly people seemed to forget what they had heard, it became evident to us that, while the meetings were useful in awakening interest, a monthly journal was needed to hold and develop that interest. It therefore seemed to be the Lord's will...
(BY GUIDING OUR ATTENTION)

It now became clear to me that the Lord... I therefore understood it to be the Lord's will ...
(BY GUIDED THINKING)

I went to the Lord with this, as with every trial; I told Him just how it seemed to me, how anxious I felt for the dear sheep, who having their appetites sharpened by the Truth were by their very hunger exposed to Satan's deceptions. I told him that I realized that He was the Shepherd and not I, but I knew also that he would be pleased with my interest in the sheep and my desire to be His servant and to declare the Truth, the Way and the Life to them; that I felt deeply impressed that if the time had come for the permission of a false view to deceive the unworthy, it must also be His due time to have the truth on the same subject made clear, that the worthy ones might be able to stand, and not fall from the Truth.
Believing that the due time had come for the correct understanding of the meaning of the Jewish sacrifices which all Christians see were typical of "better sacrifices," and trusting that the Lord would grant the insight as soon as I got into the attitude of mind best fitted to receive the light, I prayed with confidence...
(BY PRAYER AND INSIGHT OUR THOUGHTS ARE GUIDED)

But on the third day, near noon, the whole matter came to me as clear as the noonday sun--...
(BY IMPLANTING NEW THOUGHTS)
***********

So here's how God inspires: by guiding thoughts, actions, and attentions; by answering prayers and implanting ideas.

Suppose someone believed their thoughts were being guided by God, but they were mistaken?

Genesis contains the account of Noah and the flood. I've read many discussions about the flood itself. Because this was a single event which happened thousands of years ago the debate may never be conclusively ended. I look at an event in the same account that repeats itself every day. Namely: "Ge 9:13-14 "I set My bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a sign of a covenant between Me and the earth. And it shall come about, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud,..." Ge 9:16 "When the bow is in the cloud, then I will look upon it, to remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that is on the earth." Some bibles say "rainbow", so I studied the hebrew word. The same word is used 4 other times in Genesis (21:6, 27:3,48:22, & 49:24), all refer to a bow and arrow. Throughout the bible this same hebrew word is descibing a bow (a weapon). Common sense tells me that hanging up your weapon (your bow) would be viewed as a sign of peace as stated in the account. It "fits" the meaning of the account. Therefore I believe "bow" is more correct.
My hypothesis: An ancient hebrew who works outdoors (let's say a shepherd) gets caught in a thunderstorm. As scary as this would be for you or I, this man "knows" that God and his angels control the wind, rain, lightning, and thunder. He would logically conclude that God was angry with him. Perhaps he prays and asks God to spare him. Then something wonderful happens. The storm stops, the sun comes out and a beautiful band of color appears in the sky. Since God heard the shepherd's prayer, perhaps the shepherd can receive communications from God as well. Maybe not the actual "voice" of God, but a guided thought process. He prays for divine guidance in solving the mystery of this beautiful thing in the sky. Using his knowledge and reason he examines the evidence: 1) this thing is in heaven therefore it belongs to God 2) It is arched like a bow , so it might be God's bow 3) It appeared after the violence of the storm ended, so it may be a sign of peace. Conclusion: God hangs His bow on a cloud as a sign of peace after the violence of the storm.
To check my hypothesis I realized that if God had a bow He would also have arrows. I did a word search for arrows in the bible: "Psa77:17 The clouds poured out water: the skies sent out a sound: thine arrows also went abroad. 2 Samuel 22:15 He shot arrows and scattered [the enemies], bolts of lightning and routed them. Psalm 18:14 He shot his arrows and scattered [the enemies], great bolts of lightning and routed them. Psalm 144:6 Send forth lightning and scatter [the enemies]; shoot your arrows and rout them. Psalm 64:7 But God shall shoot at them with an arrow; suddenly shall they be wounded. Num24:8 God brought him forth out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn: he shall eat up the nations his enemies, and shall break their bones, and pierce them through with his arrows. Deu32:23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. Psa7:13 He hath also prepared for him the instruments of death; he ordaineth his arrows against the persecutors." Conclusion: the bible says a rainbow is God's bow and lightning are His arrows.
While the shepherd sincerely believed he was given divine guidance in determining the true nature of a rainbow, I question if this part of the bible was really from God or merely from the mind of man. Common knowledge tells me that rainbows are refracted light and lightning is a discharge of electricity. In describing the above to a christian friend, he presented the following arguments:
1) God "dumbed-down" the truth so it would be acceptable to the understanding of the men at that point in history. My reply: Noah had just been saved from the greatest diaster of all time BECAUSE of his faith in what God said, do you really think he would quit trusting what God said NOW? For example, if God said, "Dear Noah all the colors you see there are contained in the light of the sun."; would Noah really question this? Also, I believe God's message is written for all men at all times, not tailored to one point in history.
2) This part of the flood account could be figurative, not literal. My reply: Many christians feel free to split a single story into some literal parts and some figurative parts, but still claim it as "true". In this case my friend believes the flood occurred literally, but the rainbow part is figurative. I could just as easily claim the whole story is figurative. Some religions even split a single verse. There seems to be no logic or reason to this labeling. Who decides what is literal and what figurative? Can it all be figurative? I think you must read and study and decide for yourself.
3) The bible is a spiritual book, not a scientific one. My reply: I agree! That is why I don't find it necessary to claim that every single word is from God Himself to understand the spiritual message contained in the bible. You are of course free to believe that God uses a rainbow to shoot lightning arrows to earth, thus making every word "true".

Thinker

9

Want to help with some research?

by Kingpawn in

as most of you know, i'm studying tarot cards.

each week a new lesson arrives via e-mail.. a couple of weeks ago, lesson 3 showed me how to do a three-card spread.

it's where a queston is asked, the 22 cards of the major arcana are shuffled, and the top three cards drawn.

thinker

A while ago I found a DOS freeware program for tarot. If you'd like to download it click here:

http://www.rkwest.com/myfiles/tarot.zip

There's also I-ching and fortune telling freeware available. For the complete list click:

http://www.rkwest.com/downloads.shtml

thinker