Posts by TMS

22

C.O.'s: Why Are Elders Such Cowards?

by metatron in

jw
friends

the stories never stop.

abusive, egotistical, demanding, ungrateful and arrogant circuit overseers all over the place and "men" -the elders - take it.. i have seen a number of these itinerant predators offend entire congregations with their behavior and i can count the incidents where elders actually showed some b@lls and stood up to them on one hand.

why are elders such cowards?

TMS

metatron,

As you note, there have been a few who would speak up when the situation merited. Most of us were too concerned about our standing, speaking assignments at the next circuit or district assembly, etc. Another emasculating factor is the "respect for those taking the lead" and "double honor" BS, you know the Aaron/Moses thing.

On an occasion many years ago, I politely disagreed with a CO during an elder's meeting. After the meeting, one arrogant kiss ass who had just been appointed city overseer tried to ignite a "disrespect for a circuit overseer" lynch mob, but the furor quickly dissipated.

I thought of several examples of elder courage after reading your post. I will relate just one from the 70's: Gerald Grizzle was serving as a district overseer and met with the elders. He had a prepared outline from the society which he kept to carefully. As we know the 70's presented a lot of dress and grooming issues. The outline recommended that elders take note of how folks were dressed and groomed when attending church services in our respective communities, the idea being that JW's should reflect at least that standard if not being even more conservative. One very young elder raised his hand and was acknowledged. I still remember his words almost verbatum: "Brother Grizzle, with all due respect, since when do we allow Christendom to set the standard for anything we do?" You could see the blood rush to Grizzle's face. He folded up the outline and aborted the meeting, saying something to the effect that he could see that instructions from the faithful and discreet slave were not being given appropriate honor.

tms

Gr

7

Is there a higher standard for those seeking reinstatement?

by jabberwock in

it seems that more is required of disfellowshipped people who are trying to be reinstated than witnesses who are in good standing.. for example, i often hear that a disfellowshipped person must have a good record of meeting attendance before being considered for reinstatement.

if they are not regular in attendance their request for reinstatement will be denied.

but, witnesses in good standing are not disciplined or punished in any way for missing meetings.. and what if the disfellowshipped person is known to be socializing with coworkers or dating a worldly person?

TMS

From Pistoff: :

"A far cry from the parable of Jesus, where the prodigal is accepted from a distance and welcomed into the home; no mention of attendance records and interrogation about how he is "showing conduct befitting repentance."

Exactly. The Watchtower version of so-called reinstatement is the exact opposite of the parable of the prodigal son. It's also not a true reinstatement as the next cycle of groveling comes with a gradual "restoration of privileges:. I've seen elders flex their congregational muscles to deny very basic congregational percs like giving a talk in the TMS for some time after reinstatement if the returnee was not catering to their every whim.

tms

7

Is there a higher standard for those seeking reinstatement?

by jabberwock in

it seems that more is required of disfellowshipped people who are trying to be reinstated than witnesses who are in good standing.. for example, i often hear that a disfellowshipped person must have a good record of meeting attendance before being considered for reinstatement.

if they are not regular in attendance their request for reinstatement will be denied.

but, witnesses in good standing are not disciplined or punished in any way for missing meetings.. and what if the disfellowshipped person is known to be socializing with coworkers or dating a worldly person?

TMS

What the elders are supposed to be monitoring is evidence of true repentance, but in reality reinstatement involves catering to a very superficial display of attendance, condescension and adherence to whatever arbitrary whims the local judicial committee chooses to impose. Some play the game well, others not so well. A respectful demeanor while sitting on the back row, taking copious notes especially when someone serving on your committee is speaking, dressing down somewhat, never making eye contact with an active JW, making every meeting.

When you meet with the committee considering your reinstatement, you fully acknowledge your sinful course, how the Bible, the Watchtower, the meetings and the wise counsel of the elders has moved you to totally change your thinking and view of matters. If your DFing involved a relationship with another person, you've absolutely cut all ties. . . no association, phone calls, texting, etc. He/she is out of your life.

tms

40

"One of" Jehovah's Witnesses

by NeonMadman in

any thoughts on that particular phrasing?

personally, i think the wts uses it as another form of mind control.

by calling the individual "one of jehovah's witnesses," it lends a generic feel to the wording.

TMS

It's certainly considered part of the "pattern of truth" to be grammatically correct identifying oneself as one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I've noticed that now my wife and I always use one of the incorrect forms consciously.

Bill Williams, the man I wrote about 8-1/2 years ago http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/5736/1/Not-of-Our-Sort-Part-I identified himself at the door as a "member of a much-maligned sect known as Jehovah's Witnesses". Of course, he never went to the door with a book bag, only a bible in his hand and perhaps a magazine or tract in his inside coat pocket.

tms

23

Could God create a rock so heavy He could not lift it?

by nicolaou in

one question that stretched theologians during the middle ages was; could god envision or make a four sided triangle or a three sided square or some other atrocity.

at first the problem seems foolish, but it really is an instance of a more fundamental problem: is god bound and limited by the laws of reason and logic or not?.

i've had this conversation on jwd before but i was never satisfied with it.

TMS

God is such a great god. Were he to create such a rock as beyond his strength to lift, he would simply create more strength. Were he inclined to then add mass to the rock, he would again increase his own strength. Were he. . . . . . . . .

Were god to create a rock beyond his own strength, he could simply increase the mass of everything but the rock, making the rock relatively smaller. . . . were the rock relatively smaller, everything else would be relatively larger. Can you relate to that?

God is such a great god. . . . .

58

My JW parents met my wife, but would not see me...

by Confession in

so it was time for the 25 year reunion of tawas area high school's class of '84.

because i was class president, i've been responsible for throwing all the reunions we've held.

while i come to michigan on business a few times per year, i don't usually make it all the way up to the little, northeast, lake huron tourist town where they live.

TMS

Confession,

Your father must have faced some mental anguish going through a Pioneer Service School, knowing his son has "left Jehovah." If he's just going to the school at 76, that means that he's pioneered for a year and had not attended previously. Your situation could have caused him to examine his belief system more closely but instead he chose to "get closer to Jehovah" just over a year ago. I suspect he thinks of you at nearly every door he knocks on. He has good news to share with others, knowing his own son won't get "life." It's a hollow, empty feeling.

Sixteen years ago this month our son was df'd. My wife and I had not yet experienced our epiphany and were still true believers, although disheartened. We tried to continue pioneering but each step in field service was painful and heavy. In an ironic twist, the circuit overseer called. He was leaving his assignment a week early after three years. Could I fill in for him as pioneer school instructor? I agreed. It was a very melancholy week for me, performing almost on autopilot. It felt hypocritical at best, nearly traitorous.

Your dad must be feeling some of this. It's torture. The "visitation" you've so successfully navigated with the skillful assistance of your wife, is a superlative rescue attempt on several levels. It may or may not spark real introspection by your parents, but it has to give you some peace of mind.

tms

32

So, if you were marooned on a desert island..........................

by beksbks in

what is the one cd you would want to have with you?

assuming you had a means of playing and hearing it.

awesome sound system actually...............wait, that's not the point, it's the music of choice that counts..

TMS

David Bowie frequently raised this question and answered it, usually wanting to give props to some legendary blues or soul artist. On occasion, he would mention, Buddy Guy. I could live with that.

My personal preference would be any one of 10 Dylan albums. I usually listen to those for a year or two, then again.

tms

9

Public or Group Prayer As A Weapon

by TMS in

jw
friends

one of the sillier notions taught at km schools is the concept of "teaching through prayer.

" the idea is that words supposedly directed to jehovah god through christ jesus are actually aimed at individuals who are in a position to say "amen" to the supplication.

for example, in a judicial setting brother pompous opens the hearing in prayer: "dear jehovah, we ask your blessing on this arrangement.

TMS

One of the sillier notions taught at KM Schools is the concept of "teaching through prayer." The idea is that words supposedly directed to Jehovah God through Christ Jesus are actually aimed at individuals who are in a position to say "amen" to the supplication.

For example, in a judicial setting Brother Pompous opens the hearing in prayer: "Dear Jehovah, we ask your blessing on this arrangement. May you open Brother Fornicator's heart so as to be totally forthcoming with his conduct. May all of us, dear Father, be ever mindful of your watchful eye on all of our activities and, to the extent we confess them, to your tender mercies. . . . . . . ."

This is obviously an exaggeration, but not by very much.

Public prayer at a congregation meeting can also be used to "teach": "Jehovah, please create in us a submissive spirit, that we may always be obedient to those taking the lead among us, be modest in our dress and grooming, avoid a complaining or gossiping spirt, support the congregation's arrangements, put the Kingdom first in our lives, shunning the world's materialism, do our part in keeping the congregation clean, etc."

These phrases thinly disguise various agendas of individual elders. The thinking is that whoever is being talked to through prayer will straighten up and fly right.

This is just another weapon used in the despicable theocratic warfare.

tms

46

Straight from the C.O.

by swa in

hello all, i have been lurking, looking, reading, and digesting for around 2 years and it seems the time is right to post.

i recently had one of those moments at the kindom hall where i found myself looking around thinking "am i the only one who gets it, why doesn't anyone else have this puzzled look on their face?".

said during is second talk to the congregation "all of our food, our magazines, and all our wonderful books, and videos come from/through these 9 men".

TMS

For so long the GB was a hazy, anonymous group of unnumbered men for most JW's. We knew Knorr, Franz, Suiter, Larsen and maybe one or two others. During the 50's and 60's at least, we seemed to think of Knorr as running things with other important men under his direction.

I recall a Circuit Overseer prayer c.1968: "And dear Jehovah, we are so thankful that the Watchtower now reveals the names of the 12 men on the governing body. Oh, Father, thank you for that so much. . . . . . "

That was sort of a beginning of attention to the GB for me.

tms

20

what was the jw`s high water mark?

by warmasasunned in

jw
friends

when were the jw`s at there peak.

i remember when i became a witness in 1986 there seemed to be almost an electricity in the air in my part of the world nottingham england (for all those outside the uk where robinhood legend comes from).. when we went on the ministry there would sometimes be as many as 60 people mainly in there early twenties, we couldnt fit in one room and had to stand outside sometimes, now when i see the jw`s out and about there maybe 4 or 5 in number mainly old people.. i remember those days, coming to the end of the cold war, berlin wall coming down, band aid (feet of clay prophecy) peace and sercurity etc etc, it seemed arrmageddon was just round the corner, of course the jw`s still had there sell by date then (1914 gen).

was that when the witnesses were at there strongest.

TMS

Actually, Reniaa, a relatively young witness, such as yourself would not have the perspective to answer such a question. After you've been a JW for fifty or more years, you will be able to look back at the doctrinal flip-flops, the failed prophecies, the organizational misjudgements of your era.

I'm relatively certain that each successive generation of JWs have experienced a certain ebb and flow of organizational energy. During Pastor Russell's heyday, when he was "putting the hose on hell" in debates with clergymen and writing a weekly newspaper column published in dozens of newspapers, I'm sure the brethren felt energized. Then 1914 came and went and Russell fell into a depression with an obviously failed prophecy.

In the years preceding 1925 when JWs expected an earthly resurrection of "ancient worthies' to rule as princes on the earth, I'm sure things got exciting. When that didn't happen, there had to be a letdown.

As you read, for many of us the years before the failed prophecy concerning 1975 were exciting.

You'll just have to find your own high and low points, Reniaa.

tms