troubled

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Posts by troubled

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  31

  WTS involvement with politics/UN exaggerated?

  by troubled in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i've seen the threads on the wts' involvement with cesnur, swaggert, and the un.

  since then, i've done additional research on the internet, including accessing the un's webiste and searching for "watchtower" and "jehovah's witnesses.

  " and i am concerned that many of the posts on this website grossly overexaggerate the degree of the wts's involvement and its purpose.. in my internet research, the only connection i have seen between the wts and cesnur or the un is in situations on the world scene threaten their right to religious freedom.

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  troubled

  Dear ``Troubled''

  You said:
  Then why are you ``troubled?'' Apparently in your view the WTS remains above reproach in all these matters.

  No, I didn't say they were above reproach. Just that I think their involvement might be exaggerated. As I said before, I'm gathering info and trying to weigh both sides. If I were 100% absolutely certain, I would not have asked the question: "Am I missing something?"

  You said:
  Just how keen do you think they are to have these matters brought out into the open, especially since they attributed the decision to change to a voluntary donation basis to ``our desire to separate oursleves from those who would commercialize religion?''

  Their withholding of info is a valid point. However, what I was specifically trying to nail down in my thread and in my research is whether or not the extent of their involvement is being overexaggerated.

  You said:
  "Remember, these are the same people who df memebers who swim in a YMCA pool or who cut the grass at a local church as a salaried employee of a landscaper with a contract. They won't even allow the brothers to list the times and places of meetings in local yellow pages or in the newspapers under ``religious services.'' (I remember how annoying this was when I was a frequent business traveler and sought to attend a meeting). "

  Yes, the WTS has been quite strict in the application of separateness from the world to the publishers. And "what is good for the goose is good for the gander." So if a double standard is truly in place, it should be brought to light and admissions of error made. Point taken.

  You said:
  "An an affiliation, no matter how oblique, with ``the Scarlet-Colored Wild Beast'' that stand in a ``Holy Place?"
  No big deal, right? How naive are you?" It seems nothing they do can shake the uncritical veneration of the masses.

  I think a closer look at my post would reveal that, in fact, I do not have "uncritical veneration." If I did, I wouldn't be reading and researching this issue. I think of it more as "critical investigation." Making sure of things, as the Boreans did.

  Room 215,
  I found your posts thought-provoking, although the light "slam" in your last paragraph was disappointing.
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  31

  WTS involvement with politics/UN exaggerated?

  by troubled in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i've seen the threads on the wts' involvement with cesnur, swaggert, and the un.

  since then, i've done additional research on the internet, including accessing the un's webiste and searching for "watchtower" and "jehovah's witnesses.

  " and i am concerned that many of the posts on this website grossly overexaggerate the degree of the wts's involvement and its purpose.. in my internet research, the only connection i have seen between the wts and cesnur or the un is in situations on the world scene threaten their right to religious freedom.

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  troubled

  Points taken. I'll not only scan, but read the info in detail. Particularly the quotes in question. Yes, I also remember the strong admonition to "not touch the unclean thing." So will do more research into this matter. I'm not trying to argue, just get the facts straight.

  Dungbeetle:
  You've responded to several of my posts in a sarcastic, argumentative, illogical way (i.e., see the thread "Can I Say One More Thing?"). I don't know your personal circumstances, but you are obviously very angry. If you are looking for a good fight and/or your goal is to find a JW to dump on, I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong tree. I'm looking for information, not angry vengeful debates. Therefore, the posts I will respond to will be the ones presented in a respectful, nonblaming way.
• 
  31

  WTS involvement with politics/UN exaggerated?

  by troubled in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i've seen the threads on the wts' involvement with cesnur, swaggert, and the un.

  since then, i've done additional research on the internet, including accessing the un's webiste and searching for "watchtower" and "jehovah's witnesses.

  " and i am concerned that many of the posts on this website grossly overexaggerate the degree of the wts's involvement and its purpose.. in my internet research, the only connection i have seen between the wts and cesnur or the un is in situations on the world scene threaten their right to religious freedom.

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  troubled

  Hi,

  I've seen the threads on the WTS' involvement with CESNUR, Swaggert, and the UN. Since then, I've done additional research on the Internet, including accessing the UN's webiste and searching for "Watchtower" and "Jehovah's Witnesses." And I am concerned that many of the posts on this website grossly overexaggerate the degree of the WTS's involvement and its purpose.

  In my internet research, the only connection I have seen between the WTS and CESNUR or the UN is in situations on the world scene threaten their right to religious freedom.

  The definition of a NGO is very broad. Yes, it says they need to advance the UN charter, but perhaps their advancement is in the area of "freedom of worship" and nothing else. I see no involvement of the WTS in connection with military service, politics, or the like.

  In the case of Swaggert, the "amicus curiae" was a legal document submitted in connection with the Swaggert case. The WTS was not a party to Swaggert's case. Additionally, the amicus curiae was submitted not as "for" or "against" the Swaggert case, but as a "neutral" one. It's clear that the WTS filed this legal document only because the decision in the court case could affect JWs as a religious group. Granted, it had to do with taxes. And they should have been up front about this. But they were in no way supporting Swaggert or "false religion" per se. I've addressed this in an earlier thread so won't go into detail again.

  As for the involvement with CESNUR, it's a Center for the Study of New Religions. The only involement I've seen in my research is that the WTS had a representative give a presentation. How is this any different from a JW college student in a University "Study of Religion" course getting up and giving a talk on their religious beliefs, along with other students of different religions?

  For example, I understand that at the University of Colorado in Boulder, there was a day in which different religions set up booths to answer questions and offer literature to interested parties. I don't see this as an interfaith effort. Why would the CESNUR talks be any different?

  To say that it's an interfaith effort to use the same avenue to reach people would be like saying that the JWs and Mormons are in cahoots because they both go door-to-door to desseminate their religous beliefs.

  Yes, the WTS has used educational centers to advance their beliefs, and they appeal to the human political authorities when their religious rights are violated. But I'm not seeing where their involvement with the UN, CESNUR, or Swaggert is a violation of separateness from the world.

  Am I missing something?
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  19

  CAN I SAY 1 MORE THING?

  by troubled in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i know i said i'm leaving this forum, but i had to say just one more thing about why.

  please read my post to the thread about personal attacks.

  (if you have time and/or interest).. thanks!

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  troubled

  plus I felt unfairly walloped by dungbeetle and wanted to at least respond to his post.
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  19

  CAN I SAY 1 MORE THING?

  by troubled in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i know i said i'm leaving this forum, but i had to say just one more thing about why.

  please read my post to the thread about personal attacks.

  (if you have time and/or interest).. thanks!

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  troubled

  I'm still trying to decide!
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  19

  CAN I SAY 1 MORE THING?

  by troubled in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i know i said i'm leaving this forum, but i had to say just one more thing about why.

  please read my post to the thread about personal attacks.

  (if you have time and/or interest).. thanks!

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  troubled

  Dungbeetle,

  You said:

  "Nothing like a good old-fashioned guilt trip to make us feel like we are running somebody off."

  I was simply expressing my feelings. You chose to view it as a guilt trip. Unless you have special powers to read motives, you are speaking unfairly.

  Also, I didn't blame anyone for "running me off." I said I PERSONALLY was troubled by the attacks and I PERSONALLY was considering leaving because of it.

  You said:

  "How cult-minded of such a person. When facts and figures, names dates and places are in short supply, there's always good old fashioned name-calling."

  When did you ask me for any facts or figures? I see where you resorted to name calling. "how cult-minded of a person.") Where did I?

  You said:
  "Happy? what the h--l does happiness have to do with anything?"

  Happiness is a normal human desire. When weighing choices, we sometimes factor that into our decisions. Therefore, in my other post, I asked a logical question: whether or not ex-JWs were happier than they were as JWs.

  You said:
  "Was Jesus HAPPY when he threw the money changers out of the temple?"

  No. I didn't say humans should be happy ALL THE TIME.

  You said:

  "If a Jehovah's Witness can't come here to this board and connect with other Jehovah's Witnesses, then the fault ain't with this board or anyone on it."

  I didn't say I couldn't connect. I said the personal attacks bother me and that it is a board set up primarily to support ex-JWs. As such, it may not be the right board for me (an active JW seeking information, to weigh pro and con, without personal attacks, sarcasm, etc.)

  You said:
  "If someone comes to this board, and does not feel shock and pain over things like molestation, rape, exploitation, lying, shunning and a higher body count than the People's Temple...no you aren't going to find 'comfort and support' here."

  Now wait a minute. Can you read my feelings too? When did I say I feel no shock or pain over some of the things I've read here?

  You said:
  "GET DOWN OFF THE CROSS SOMEBODY NEEDS THE WOOD."

  Albert Schweitzer said:

  "WE WANDER THROUGH THIS LIFE TOGETHER IN A SEMI-DARKNESS IN WHICH NONE OF US CAN DISTINGUISH EXACTLY THE FEATURES OF HIS NEIGHBOR. ONLY FROM TIME TO TIME, THROUGH SOME EXPERIENCE THAT WE HAVE OF OUR COMPANION, OR THROUGH SOME REMARK THAT HE PASSES, HE STANDS FOR A MOMENT CLOSE TO US, AS THOUGH ILLUMINATED BY A FLASH OF LIGHTNING. THEN WE SEE HIM AS HE TRULY IS."
• 
  19

  CAN I SAY 1 MORE THING?

  by troubled in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i know i said i'm leaving this forum, but i had to say just one more thing about why.

  please read my post to the thread about personal attacks.

  (if you have time and/or interest).. thanks!

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  troubled

  Amazing,

  Whoops! Sorry I didn't give the title of the thread where my post is. It's in the thread titled "Enough of the Language and Attacks."
• 
  19

  CAN I SAY 1 MORE THING?

  by troubled in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i know i said i'm leaving this forum, but i had to say just one more thing about why.

  please read my post to the thread about personal attacks.

  (if you have time and/or interest).. thanks!

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  2. 
  3. 
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  troubled

  I know I said I'm leaving this forum, but I had to say just one more thing about why. Please read my post to the thread about personal attacks. (If you have time and/or interest).

  Thanks!
• 
  29

  Goodbye

  by troubled in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  after much soul searching, i've decided to abandon this board.

  i have learned a great deal, and what i've read has expanded my view.

  so as i leave, i'll not be sorry for the time i spent here.

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  troubled

  DannyBear and the Others,

  I know that, for most of you, your anger also coexists with love. I'll remember that. And maybe someday I'll be back to post again.
• 
  11

  You can leave a review about this Website!

  by MrMoe in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  go to http://reviews2.alexa.com/cgi-bin/reviews.cgi?type=3&url=jehovahs-witness.com or click on reviews at the blue alexa box at the bottom of the page - i already left a review and marked it as a 5 star site.

  i think simon is doing a bang up job - remember - comments are controlled by us, not simon.

  .

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  troubled

  Thank you, Mr. Moe and Simon,

  I am leaving the discussion group, but have left my honest opinion in my "Goodbye" thread and in my rating of the site.