Posts by EdenOne

43

The apparent contradiction of John 3:13

by EdenOne in

the wts uses john 3:13 to prove that before jesus no one was taken to heaven.. in the nwt, john 3:13 reads:"moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the son of man.".

notice a difference to the king james bible:.

john 3:13 - "and no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man who is in heaven.

EdenOne

Bobcat,

thanks for the references

Eden

43

The apparent contradiction of John 3:13

by EdenOne in

the wts uses john 3:13 to prove that before jesus no one was taken to heaven.. in the nwt, john 3:13 reads:"moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the son of man.".

notice a difference to the king james bible:.

john 3:13 - "and no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man who is in heaven.

EdenOne

Band on the Run,

I recall reading that Jews never believed in a resurrection until about one hundred years before Jesus' birth.

I disagree with you.

There are three accounts in the old testament of resurrections. One performed bythe prophet Elijah (1 Kings 17:22) ; Another one by the prophet Elisha (2 Kings 4:32-35); And another one of a man who came back to life when he was accidentally thrown into a grave where the bones of prophet Elisha were. (2 Kings 13:21). Granted, these were resurrections back into the earthly realm, but at least the Jews were very familiar with the concept of "resurrection".

Even the pre-covenant ancient patriarchs held that hope.

Abraham believed in resurrection. Paul reasoned that was the reason why he was willing to sacrifice Isaac and find it compatible with Jehovah's promise that his "seed" would come through Isaac. "Abraham reasoned that if Isaac died, God was able to bring him back to life again. And in a sense, Abraham did receive his son back from the dead." (Hebrews 11:9)

However, another patriarch, Job, provides a surprising insight about resurrection, in two Bible passages. The first is well-known to the Witnesses as it is often used. The second one is usually glanced over, but bears a surprise:

Job 14:13, 14 " Oh that You would hide me in Sheol, That You would conceal me until Your wrath returns to You, That You would set a limit for me and remember me! If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my struggle I will wait Until my change comes. You will call, and I will answer You; You will long for the work of Your hands."

Job 19:25, 26 - "For I know that my Redeemer lives, and at the last he will stand upon the earth. Even after my skin is destroyed, Yet from my flesh I shall see God; Whom I myself shall behold, And whom my eyes will see and not another."

The first text is clear in displaying Job's belief in a resurrection. But the second text is surprising in the sense that he believes that upon resurrection he will leave his flesh behind and he will contemplate God in his presence. It appears that Job understood that this was to take place in an heavenly realm. This is something that the GB conveniently glances over.

Although both pre and post-Law covenant Jews believed in resurrection, they weren't dogmatic about what it consisted of, and instead they focused on living a good, righteous life. However they did belive that the faithful Jews had some hope of a life after death; This is hinted at the expression that faithful men, upon death, were "gathered to their people", as was the case of Abraham (Genesis 25:8), Ishmael (Genesis 25:17), Isaac (Genesis 35:29), Jacob (Genesis 49:33), Moses and Aaron (Deuteronomy 32:50), King Josiah (2 kings 22:20); Conversely, certain sins described in the Law resulted in someone being executed, with the particularity of being "cut off from his people" - which the Jews referred to with the term "kareit", which denotes a "spiritual excision", the loss of his lot in the world to come.

Daniel was reassured of his future resurrection (Daniel 12:2); Nehemiah believed in a future reward after his death (Nehemiah 5:19).

The ancient Jewish belief in the "world to come" is expressed by the term OLAM HA-BA. The saducees rejected resurrection because they said it was not in the Torah (Genesis to Deuteronomy); The Pharisees accepted it because they thought it was implied in it.

Eden

43

The apparent contradiction of John 3:13

by EdenOne in

the wts uses john 3:13 to prove that before jesus no one was taken to heaven.. in the nwt, john 3:13 reads:"moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the son of man.".

notice a difference to the king james bible:.

john 3:13 - "and no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man who is in heaven.

EdenOne

Thanks for the comments.

I'll be bringing up some more texts on this same subject ... if there are solid arguments against resurrections to heavens before Christ.

Eden

43

The apparent contradiction of John 3:13

by EdenOne in

the wts uses john 3:13 to prove that before jesus no one was taken to heaven.. in the nwt, john 3:13 reads:"moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the son of man.".

notice a difference to the king james bible:.

john 3:13 - "and no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man who is in heaven.

EdenOne

*Bump*

No comments?

Eden

43

The apparent contradiction of John 3:13

by EdenOne in

the wts uses john 3:13 to prove that before jesus no one was taken to heaven.. in the nwt, john 3:13 reads:"moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the son of man.".

notice a difference to the king james bible:.

john 3:13 - "and no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the son of man who is in heaven.

EdenOne

The WTS uses John 3:13 to prove that before Jesus no one was taken to heaven.

In the NWT, John 3:13 reads: "Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man."

Notice a difference to the King James Bible:

John 3:13 - "And no man has ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven." (King James Bible)

Notice the difference in the last bit?

In the Westcott/Hort Greek Text, the last bit is omitted; However, in all other greek texts, including Tieschendorf's, it is present.

The text presents a few difficulties:

a) It appears to indicate that Jesus has ascended to heaven sometime in the past, and descended to earth in the then present time;

b) It appears to say that no one was resurrected to heaven before Jesus

c) it appears to say that the Son of man is simultaneously on earth and in heaven.

To me, the translation that has managed to come up with the wording that expresses more correctly the overall sense of the text is this:

John 3:13: "There is no one who has gone up to Heaven, but there is One who has come down from Heaven, namely the Son of Man whose home is in Heaven." (Weymouth New Testament)

Considering the context, Jesus wasn't talking about resurrection to heavenly life; rather, he was telling Nicodemos that he had superior credentials to any other man to talk about heavenly things because, unlike any other human currently living, he has lived in the heavens, and he has descented from his natural abode of existence down to earth, to teach people about heavens. When he said "There is no one who has gone up to heaven", given the context and the follow up of the sentence, it is understood that "There is no one who has gone up to heaven [and returned], but there is one who came down from Heaven, the Son of Man, whose home [existence] is in Heaven"

Therefore, I would translate it this way:

"No man in existence has gone up to heaven, except the Son of man who has come down, whose home is heaven"

What do you think?

Eden

11

144,000 as Kings and Priests Really? or not?

by Crazyguy in

in revelation chapters 7 and 14 there it talks about the 144k but says nothing of them being kings and priests.

in revelation chapter 5 and 20 it mentions ones being kings and judges, but if you notice in chapter 20 verse 4-5 it talks about martyrs coming to life judging and reigning with jesus, not the 144k specifically.

in verse 5-6 talks about the first resurrection and that all that share in this first resurrection will be priests of god and of jesus and they will reign for a thousand years.. so notice in revelation chapters 7 and 19 a great crowd is mentioned being alive standing before the throne standing at the same time as the 144k are mentioned.

EdenOne

marked

88

jw.org store in Rouen, France

by breakfast of champions in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvcvnhohno4.

naaaahh.

we're not a business.

EdenOne

I think it's good Public Relations. But, if this is a pilot, then I must ask: Rouen, France...? Really ...??

The WT must get more inventive, since they surely realize that the efficiency of door-to-door witnessing, at least in the Western world, is showing its limitations. Publishers are getting demotivated as the results of preaching door-to-door are decreasing sharply. This could add a cool spin.

Now, if only our MESSAGE and DOCTRINE was right ... and our POLICIES were really Christian .... :) That would take a quantum leap - more than a street shop.

Eden

33

Did Jesus lie or just changed his mind?

by EdenOne in

john 7:8-10.

"go up to the festival yourselves.

i'm not going to this festival yet, because my time has not yet fully come.

EdenOne

To me, he changed his mind. He honestly wasn't considering going (perhaps thought it was too dangerous, there was a risk of death, and "his time hadn't come yet"), but maybe due to some divine reassurance, he decided to go, after all, taking some precautions though.

This is just an example of how the little details in the manuscripts can make a lot of difference isn't it?

And another lesson: Even Jesus CAN change his mind about some things.

Eden

33

Did Jesus lie or just changed his mind?

by EdenOne in

john 7:8-10.

"go up to the festival yourselves.

i'm not going to this festival yet, because my time has not yet fully come.

EdenOne

humbled,

English Standard Version:

"You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come.”

New American Standard Bible

"Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come."

New Living Translation

"You go on. I'm not going to this festival, because my time has not yet come."

New International Version

"You go to the festival. I am not going up to this festival, because my time has not yet fully come."

Greek original: (Tischendorf)

?με?ς ?ν?βητε ε?ς τ?ν ?ορτ?ν· ?γ? ο?κ ?ναβα?νω ε?ς τ?ν ?ορτ?ν τα?την, ?τι ? ?μ?ς καιρ?ς ο?πω πεπλ?ρωται.

himeis anabete eis ten heorten ego ouk anabaino eis ten heortentauten hoti ho emos kairos oupo peplerotai

ο?κ [ouk] = No, never (strong's 3756)

ο?πω = [oupó] = Not yet (strong's 3768)

and now...?

Eden

33

Did Jesus lie or just changed his mind?

by EdenOne in

john 7:8-10.

"go up to the festival yourselves.

i'm not going to this festival yet, because my time has not yet fully come.

EdenOne

So, this justifies lying to a JC? ...since they're not entitled to know the truth about someone digging "apostate sites"....

Eden