Posts by EdenOne

23

Religion without revelation - any examples from the past?

by EdenOne in

i'm researching on the common trait of mostly every religion coming from pre-humanist times, and that would be, the notion of "revelation", that is, that at the beginning of every [i say this with caution because i'm admitting to exceptions] religion there is some sort of "revelation" from supernatural being(s) of some sort.. my question is: do you know of any example of religions from the past that you can confidently say that were exempt from "revelation"?

this is not the same as asking if there were religions without gods, or religions of nature.

i'm not even considering what i understand as philosophical-ethical systems, such as confucionism or platonism my purpose is to find out if, at the starting point of all religions of the past, there is a "revelation", or merely "observation / contemplation".

EdenOne

Ruby:

i'd like to question and broaden what "revelation from the a supernatural source" means anyway.

Perhaps it's best if I give you a familiar example. Judaism, Christianity and Islam are said to be "Abrahamic" faiths. How did Abraham get his faith in the first place? By means of a revelation from the divinity:

Genesis 12:1-4 The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you. I will make you into a great nation, and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.” So Abram went, as the Lord had told him (...)

I'm not setting a discussion here if Abraham really heard a REAL voice from God, or if he was schizophrenic and IMAGINED to hear a voice from the supernatural realm, or if Abraham invented the whole story, or if this entire story is an "ad-hoc" mythologization from a later period of time. What I mean is: At the beginning of Abraham's faith [according to Genesis, that is; if you read 1 Enoch the story goes considerably different] there's a "revelation" from a supernatural source.

Eden

23

Religion without revelation - any examples from the past?

by EdenOne in

i'm researching on the common trait of mostly every religion coming from pre-humanist times, and that would be, the notion of "revelation", that is, that at the beginning of every [i say this with caution because i'm admitting to exceptions] religion there is some sort of "revelation" from supernatural being(s) of some sort.. my question is: do you know of any example of religions from the past that you can confidently say that were exempt from "revelation"?

this is not the same as asking if there were religions without gods, or religions of nature.

i'm not even considering what i understand as philosophical-ethical systems, such as confucionism or platonism my purpose is to find out if, at the starting point of all religions of the past, there is a "revelation", or merely "observation / contemplation".

EdenOne

BOTR, my "problem" with revelation is that it can rationally be disputed as a) product of mental illness; b) product of an induced altered state of mind (hypnosis, drugs, starvation, dehydration, sun stroke, delirium...); c) ad-hoc mythologization; d) deliberate deceit.

My hypothesis is that, at the basis of [most] every religion before humanist age, there is always a "revelation", or a "supernatural enlightenment", or a "mystical connection with the supernatural domain". I would like to know if any religion has developed out of mere observation or thought process that doesn't include the supernatural.

And, Vivian, good observation about Jainism.

Eden

23

Religion without revelation - any examples from the past?

by EdenOne in

i'm researching on the common trait of mostly every religion coming from pre-humanist times, and that would be, the notion of "revelation", that is, that at the beginning of every [i say this with caution because i'm admitting to exceptions] religion there is some sort of "revelation" from supernatural being(s) of some sort.. my question is: do you know of any example of religions from the past that you can confidently say that were exempt from "revelation"?

this is not the same as asking if there were religions without gods, or religions of nature.

i'm not even considering what i understand as philosophical-ethical systems, such as confucionism or platonism my purpose is to find out if, at the starting point of all religions of the past, there is a "revelation", or merely "observation / contemplation".

EdenOne

Coded Logic:

Wait, are you looking for a religion whos founder didn't claim revelation?

Yes, exactly. Whatever mythology came to be constructed afterwords by its adherents, it's not relevant as long as it hasn't become a fundamental part of that religion.

Eden

23

Religion without revelation - any examples from the past?

by EdenOne in

i'm researching on the common trait of mostly every religion coming from pre-humanist times, and that would be, the notion of "revelation", that is, that at the beginning of every [i say this with caution because i'm admitting to exceptions] religion there is some sort of "revelation" from supernatural being(s) of some sort.. my question is: do you know of any example of religions from the past that you can confidently say that were exempt from "revelation"?

this is not the same as asking if there were religions without gods, or religions of nature.

i'm not even considering what i understand as philosophical-ethical systems, such as confucionism or platonism my purpose is to find out if, at the starting point of all religions of the past, there is a "revelation", or merely "observation / contemplation".

EdenOne

Ruby, thank you for your input. I'll tell you where the crux of my interest is: For the sake of argument, let's assume that every "revelation", "mystical connection" and "supernatural enlightenment" can be rationally explained away by altered states of mind caused by mental illness (schizoprenia, bipolar disorder...) induced hypnosis, 'near-death experiences', extreme starvation, or by hallucinogenic substances.

If every "revelation" / "mystical connection" / "supernatural enlightnenment" may be the result of the factors above, is there ANY religious system pre-humanist that isn't dependant on the factors I have mentioned? That's what I'm aiming to investigate.

Eden

23

Religion without revelation - any examples from the past?

by EdenOne in

i'm researching on the common trait of mostly every religion coming from pre-humanist times, and that would be, the notion of "revelation", that is, that at the beginning of every [i say this with caution because i'm admitting to exceptions] religion there is some sort of "revelation" from supernatural being(s) of some sort.. my question is: do you know of any example of religions from the past that you can confidently say that were exempt from "revelation"?

this is not the same as asking if there were religions without gods, or religions of nature.

i'm not even considering what i understand as philosophical-ethical systems, such as confucionism or platonism my purpose is to find out if, at the starting point of all religions of the past, there is a "revelation", or merely "observation / contemplation".

EdenOne

Coded Logic,

As far as I could (superficially) read, Jainism might be regarded as a religion without a "revelation" at its inception - although their devotion to jinas and their elevated view of the tirthankaras sometimes may strike as some sort of 'mystical connection with supernatural [in this case, previously human] beings". But I agree, it may well be regarded as an exception to the norm.

Eden

23

Religion without revelation - any examples from the past?

by EdenOne in

i'm researching on the common trait of mostly every religion coming from pre-humanist times, and that would be, the notion of "revelation", that is, that at the beginning of every [i say this with caution because i'm admitting to exceptions] religion there is some sort of "revelation" from supernatural being(s) of some sort.. my question is: do you know of any example of religions from the past that you can confidently say that were exempt from "revelation"?

this is not the same as asking if there were religions without gods, or religions of nature.

i'm not even considering what i understand as philosophical-ethical systems, such as confucionism or platonism my purpose is to find out if, at the starting point of all religions of the past, there is a "revelation", or merely "observation / contemplation".

EdenOne

Coded Logic,

regarding Zoroastrianism, Wiki states:

"According to Zoroastrian belief, when Zoroaster was 30 years old, he went into the Daiti river to draw water for a Haoma ceremony; when he emerged, he received a vision of Vohu Manah. After this, Vohu Manah took him to the other six Amesha Spentas, where he received the completion of his vision. This vision radically transformed his view of the world, and he tried to teach this view to others."

I think this puts a "revelation" or "supernatural enlightenment" at the origin of Zoroastrianism.

Eden

23

Religion without revelation - any examples from the past?

by EdenOne in

i'm researching on the common trait of mostly every religion coming from pre-humanist times, and that would be, the notion of "revelation", that is, that at the beginning of every [i say this with caution because i'm admitting to exceptions] religion there is some sort of "revelation" from supernatural being(s) of some sort.. my question is: do you know of any example of religions from the past that you can confidently say that were exempt from "revelation"?

this is not the same as asking if there were religions without gods, or religions of nature.

i'm not even considering what i understand as philosophical-ethical systems, such as confucionism or platonism my purpose is to find out if, at the starting point of all religions of the past, there is a "revelation", or merely "observation / contemplation".

EdenOne

I'm researching on the common trait of mostly every religion coming from pre-humanist times, and that would be, the notion of "revelation", that is, that at the beginning of every [I say this with caution because I'm admitting to exceptions] religion there is some sort of "revelation" from supernatural being(s) of some sort.

My question is: Do you know of any example of religions from the past that you can confidently say that were exempt from "revelation", or "enlightenment from a supernatural origin" or "mystical connection with a supernatural world"? This is not the same as asking if there were religions without gods, or religions of nature. I'm not even considering what I understand as philosophical-ethical systems, such as confucionism or platonism. My purpose is to find out if, at the starting point of all religions of the past, there is a "revelation", or merely "observation / contemplation".

Not sure if I made myself clear, but, in any case, please let's think together.

Eden

15

JC's and recordings?

by punkofnice in

i know there are recordings out there of jcs and more to come.

i imagine the average drone wouldn't dream of recording a jc but those who are aware of the tatt might record jcs if they bother to attend.. i'm wondering (yes, another idle speculation post...sorreeeeeee), with the advent of more being recorded if the wbt$ will change their tack on how jcs are conducted?

leave it the same?.

EdenOne

I've secretly recorded my JC (at least the first 2 hours of it), and keep it as an "insurance policy", for possible later use.

One useful tip: If you take a tablet with you (or a smartphone with a sizeable memory) consider purchasing a DJ/Broadcasting app. Then simply broadcast it into the internet and have SOMEONE else record that broadcast or listen to it. If someone tells you that you can't record it, you can confidently say that you aren't recording. (you're simply broadcasting it live to the world :P There's nothing in the Elder's book against THAT).

Eden

443

Zone Visit: An Announcement That Will "Test Your Faith"

by breakfast of champions in

this is the scuttlebutt in one of the "bethel congregations" by us.. no details as to exactly what this "faith-testing" announcement might be.. anyone else hear any of this pre-zone visit hype?.

.

EdenOne

Eden

32

Books about early Christianity

by EdenOne in

i've just finished reading two (imo) great books:.

"a history of christianity - the first three thousand years", by diarmaid macculloch.

"misquoting jesus", by bart ehrman.

EdenOne

I've finished reading my books. Both books by James Tabor blew my mind. I strongly recommend them, to get an understanding on how Paul theologically hijacked the Jesus movement and how was the Jesus movement before Paul took over it. I like Bart Ehrman when he goes on textual criticism details, but he repeats a lot of material across his books, which at times is boring already.

I've purchased three more books:

"James, The Brother Of Jesus", by Robert Eisenman

"The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls ( 7th ed)" by Geza Vermes

"The Nag Hamadi Scriptures" by Marvin W. Meyer

Doug, thank you for that list, I'll have a look at some of those.

Eden