Posts by Journeyman

49

Some thoughts on the message of doom

by JeffT in

jw
friends

one of the recent threads on the talk about the hailstone message got me to thinking.

the problem with putting out a message like that is what to do when nothing happens.

i have to think that somebody will be asking that question.

Journeyman

I wondered about that. A group of priests and soldiers witnessed this, and none of them were moved by it. [...] Were they so driven that they dismissed something so incredible?

It's a good question. I think you put your finger on part of it there. Bear in mind that previously, the religious leaders and others who opposed him had claimed that any unexplained works he had done were because he "had a demon" - so even if they saw things that could be considered miraculous, they were so convinced that they were right and he was wrong that they probably attributed it to evil which had to be fought.

It's the same reason that I was always amazed that the Devil would continue to oppose God, despite knowing from long ago that his end would be in destruction. But sometimes becoming so fixated on your own actions can blind you to everything else, especially if you are eaten up with rage and/or hatred.

For those unsure, or who don't believe the whole 'spiritual' element, we know this happens in 'real' life too: some fugitives or criminals become so focused on what they want to do, that they become tunnel-visioned and ignore the massive odds stacked against them. Likewise with military leaders who will lead their forces into futile, suicidal campaigns because they are totally convinced of their own ideology and still believe they can win.

23

Cost of living crisis

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

during the height of the pandemic all elders had to report to the co anyone who was struggling with bills or who couldn’t pay the rent.

the co reported it to the branch.. i don’t know what happens next.

do the branch help at all?

Journeyman

This is a clear way in which the Org disregards a key part of Christian life in the 1st century (which they are supposed to have modelled themselves on).

They've occasionally referred to the "relief ministry", the fact that the early congregations gathered material things to support the poor in their midst - Acts 6:1-6 shows it was not just in times of disaster (eg: famine at Ac 11:28-30 and 2 Corinthians 8-9) but for everyday hardship. In the NWT, Paul calls it a "necessary matter" - so why doesn't the Org encourage and coordinate it? They've never followed that example - quite the reverse.

Following 'direction' from higher up, local congregations are mostly resistant to supporting needy members officially; they prefer to leave it to individuals to do it informally, and even then, they will counsel them not to get too 'involved' because of the danger of fraud or exploitation (I've seen that, and been on the receiving end of it for assisting others, too). But there would be less danger of any fraud and exploitation if the congregations organised such relief properly in the first place, as the Bible indicates they should.

Even congregation meals, parties and other 'gatherings' have been increasingly discouraged. Back before the 2000s, they used to be an accepted part of life for many JWs but GB2.0 seem to have done their best to crush even that 'association', which probably helped some poorer members to sometimes enjoy food and company they otherwise wouldn't have had.

Directing congregation members to state assistance is all very well where it exists and it's legal and possible to get it, but in many countries there is little or none, so what then? Even in countries with a social safety net the eligibility criteria are getting stricter.

Any chance a JW can ask Warwick HQ how they are spending donations?

The point about financial transparency at the top of the Org is a good one. Again, if they were really following a Biblical example, contributions were openly accounted for (donations and materials for building Solomon's temple for example - 1 Chronicles 29:1-7). They expect local congregation accounts and assembly overseers to account for every penny and present detailed accounts, but in true "mote-in-the-eye" fashion, fail to apply the principle of transparency to themselves and their vast income and spending.

171

Mass Shooting at Kingdom Hall in Hamburg, Germany

by EdenOne in

mass shooting at a kingdom hall in hamburg, germany this evening.

at least 6 or 7 killed, dozens injured.

single shooter on the run, police doesn't rule out more shooters.

Journeyman

Why would you judge God any differently for doing something similar on a much greater scale?

The flaw in that reasoning is that humans are NOT God - not even close. If you believe that God is much greater, both in terms of power but also in understanding and ability to 'read' the heart, mind and motivation of people, then it's no comparison.

The problem with the people you mention - Nazis, 'radicalised' religious people, etc - is that they arrogantly elevate themselves to God's level (knowingly or unknowingly), thinking they have the RIGHT to take lives as they see fit. And in the case of those who think they are doing 'God's work' (such as that shooter, maybe), they compound the error by presuming to act 'for God'.

However, humans do not have the right to 'play God' in that way, precisely because we are just bags of water and meat, or 'mere grass that withers' etc, as the Bible puts it. We do not know what goes on in the mind and heart of another person so cannot judge them with total certainty, and we definitely cannot restore life to someone if we take it away in 'error'.

TonusOH put a finger on one crucial difference that entitles God to give - or remove - life: He made it, can remake it, and can give it back to whomever he chooses. He 'owns' the very concept of life - we do not.

Couple that with God being able to read the hearts and motivations of others, and to even foresee the inclination of people, (which no mere human can do with certainty) means that comparing God's right to kill with humans is comparing apples with oranges.

Such belief is a stepping block upon which more radicalized beliefs can be built: "If it is God's will to do it eventually and everyone agrees with it, than I could do it now and I'd be doing God's will. Now or later, what's the difference?"

That may be how such extremists think, but it should be obvious to everyone else how flawed that thinking is. It's not just about "now or later", it's about WHO does the killing (and why). Some extreme religions are more problematic with this because their 'holy' texts can be interpreted to appear to permit their members to do it (I'm thinking Islam, for example) but certainly for supposed Christians, it is clear from the NT that they should not be killing anyone themselves.

11530

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars

by Newly Enlightened in

original reddit post (removed).

Journeyman

Goodness me, he does love the sound of his own voice, doesn't he? Almost seventeen minutes to just say "thanks for those who have contributed so far, but we need more money to survive (but I'm not begging); we need 500 patrons contributing to survive, 600-620 to move forward, otherwise we may need to scale back"? (The last minute was talking about other matters). He re-reads a message he's already sent out for about two minutes, then spends nearly FIFTEEN more saying more-or-less the same thing in about 2-3 different ways!

Perhaps the other members of “Ipsilon Media” should get together and get rid of him, since he is the liability here, and probably the easiest to replace too.

A good point! He is the 'brand' that has been tainted - it would be better all round for him to relinquish the host/interviewer role to a fresh face/voice and rebrand the channel, if he really wants Ipsilon Media to continue and perhaps be a success. That will never happen, of course.
Besides, what exactly is his channel supposed to be, going forward? It's not sustainable as a business model just to be a channel that discusses different religions. If he wants to make it more investigative, he will need insiders and contacts that it seems he no longer has due to his recent actions and indiscretions.

45

GB Update - Meet the new GB members

by eyeslice in

jw
friends

i overheard my wife listening to '2023 governing body update #2, presented by kenneth cook jnr.

a few points i got from it.. new hour requirements.

quote "with the new hour requirements for pioneers, many us us can share in the pioneer work.

Journeyman

Matthew 24:14 says to go forth and spread the gospel in all the earth, but I missed the part where it said pioneers must keep track of how many hours so they can turn in the required time slip each month.

I agree. Elder and even MS you could claim are scriptural roles, but there's nothing scriptural about 'pioneer'.
Ministry is supposed to be an intrinsic part of living as a Christian, not a specific hour requirement you check off every month and report back. Jesus' disciples returned with experiences to discuss, not an hourly report! Can you imagine the apostle Paul carrying a slip to mark off time, and saying "one more visit then I'll have done my time for the month"!

It's created a totally distorted attitude to ministry. Most of us will know the old "got to get my hours in"/"start my time by leaving a tract" thinking it breeds (and many of us maybe even used to think that way ourselves). Pioneers especially, end up thinking more about time and placements than about people.

Bringing it back to GB members, they of course encourage this thinking with all the fuss about how wonderfully spiritual it is to be a pioneer, and all the fawning over "fulltime service" in meeting parts and talks. They spend far more time emphasising that than, say, working on spiritual qualities (eg: the fruitage of the spirit) and being a better individual, married couple, family, etc.

171

Mass Shooting at Kingdom Hall in Hamburg, Germany

by EdenOne in

mass shooting at a kingdom hall in hamburg, germany this evening.

at least 6 or 7 killed, dozens injured.

single shooter on the run, police doesn't rule out more shooters.

Journeyman

Letter from the CE branch

LoyalLeon - that letter is notable for its failure to acknowledge the assistance of the "superior authorities", in particular the armed police and paramedics. Some news reports at the time said that officers were on a training course nearby and had been able to attend swiftly, which likely prevented fewer casualties as the perpetrator fled upstairs away from the arriving cops.

Also, even allowing for the possibility of poor translation, the phrase "We are pleased to inform you" does seem in poor taste. Surely just "A special funeral program is planned..." would have been more appropriate (and the Org does love the word "special"). Not sure it was necessary to mention the attendance of a GB member ahead of time either. Again, a contrast with the past, where GB1.0 would never have "blown a trumpet" before themselves about attending such an event.

It will be interesting to see if any reports come out of that funeral event regarding the talk(s) given and their tone and content.

171

Mass Shooting at Kingdom Hall in Hamburg, Germany

by EdenOne in

mass shooting at a kingdom hall in hamburg, germany this evening.

at least 6 or 7 killed, dozens injured.

single shooter on the run, police doesn't rule out more shooters.

Journeyman

Not a single word of praise or gratitude to the police and authorities for their prompt intervention that probably saved many more lives

Interestingly, they did thank the police and other authorities in the notice posted on the website Newsroom, but that was mysteriously removed within a couple of days.

171

Mass Shooting at Kingdom Hall in Hamburg, Germany

by EdenOne in

mass shooting at a kingdom hall in hamburg, germany this evening.

at least 6 or 7 killed, dozens injured.

single shooter on the run, police doesn't rule out more shooters.

Journeyman

The german public attorney mentioned that the suspect "left the congregation a year and half ago voluntarily, but not in good terms". What exactly does this mean?

Disassociated after a 'dispute' over teachings or reproof? Sounds plausible.

171

Mass Shooting at Kingdom Hall in Hamburg, Germany

by EdenOne in

mass shooting at a kingdom hall in hamburg, germany this evening.

at least 6 or 7 killed, dozens injured.

single shooter on the run, police doesn't rule out more shooters.

Journeyman

The more that is coming out about this, the less I think it's actually a problem for JW's as such.

This individual sounds like your common-or-garden unstable personality, of the sort we hear about all the time in all kind of places.

Disfellowshipping (or other removal/rejection from a religious community), firing from their job or being rejected in love, there are a lot of people like this (overwhelmingly men, sadly) who react violently, as we are seeing on the news these days - attacking their former employer, former school/college, ex-partner or whatever.

Only the most vehement enemies of JWs - the sort who will use any negative story like this to attack them - are likely to get mileage from this story, unless something very different emerges.

However, how the Org or individual Witnesses themselves choose to react to this single incident will be interesting. Will they overreact/go overboard on security, or just recognise (as according to their understanding of the Bible) that this is just part of the 'times' we are living in?

171

Mass Shooting at Kingdom Hall in Hamburg, Germany

by EdenOne in

mass shooting at a kingdom hall in hamburg, germany this evening.

at least 6 or 7 killed, dozens injured.

single shooter on the run, police doesn't rule out more shooters.

Journeyman

It's too early to say whether this is anything to do with ongoing issues with WT policies, and frankly I think it's a bit tasteless to draw that link until and unless there is evidence. Even then, that doesn't excuse this kind of outrage.

The reality is that unarmed and generally innocent people are being targeted for violent attacks much more these days in various parts of the western world for all kinds of reasons, and any mass attack like this, whether it's on a school, office or religious building should be condemned without any excuses or reservations.

On the other hand, I do agree with LongHairGal that this is going to really mess up the GB's attempt to get the congregations back to the Halls! Most JWs are paranoid enough, and this is going to really get them frightened, especially as the ones in 'comfortable' western countries tend to live in a bubble where all the bad stuff happens to people 'outside' (until it happens to them, of course).