... and so another round of the interminable Lloyd Evans saga begins, including a new thread on Reddit. (I wonder how long that will last before it descends into chaos?)
Settle down with your popcorn and snacks, everyone!
Journeyman
JoinedPosts by Journeyman
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11530
It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars
by Newly Enlightened inoriginal reddit post (removed).
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Journeyman
I also agree with Tonus - I never used to feel comfortable with some forms of ministry. Street work - stopping randoms as they go about their private business - and calling on homes at clearly inappropriate times, like Sunday mornings.
My favourite part of ministry was actually having Bible discussions/studies, because you knew the person wanted to be there, and it was a chance to really dig deeper and discuss their thoughts and feelings. But opportunities for these got rarer and rarer, partly due to increased lack of interest, but also partly due to the watering down of the study materials we were supposed to use.Over the years, the two new tools which could have substantially improved the ministry are the website and the use of public carts (trolleys, as we often call them in the UK) - but even these methods have been watered down due to over-simplification.
The cart witnessing, which many mock, but I feel could be a good method if used properly, is reduced to advice to just stand there and smile at passers-by, then direct them to the website or swap numbers with them if they show interest.
I enjoyed it at first before they changed the rules (originally, we could stand offering publications in hand, and engage people in conversation), not once the role just became a mute nodding dog routine, made worse by other witnesses spending the time standing around chatting, drinking coffee and checking their phones.
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Journeyman
I agree with Diogenesister - when I first became a "publisher" sometime last century(!), it seemed many more Witnesses took the ministry more seriously, and even the lead set by GB1.0 supported that. The "society", as it used to be called back then (NOT "the organisation") seemed more serious about 'teaching' and 'reasoning' with people, with a "Theocratic Ministry School", more informative magazines and study publications for "interested ones", and tools like the Reasoning book (for all its flaws).
However, the two downsides of that were that 1) "fulltime servants" were often treated like some kind of superior grade of JW (and many acted as if they knew it), and 2) there was much more pressure to make your "hours" for the month, which were much more substantial.
Today, it's more of a sideshow. Noone really looks up to pioneers and other fulltime preachers now (although that's no bad thing). The majority of JWs go through the motions and the ministry itself is a parody of its former self: shadow videos with simplistic "presentations", video clips, constant "next time I call" style Q&As.
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Ex- First Minister of Scotland's husband arrested................
by BoogerMan in.........by police investigating the snp's missing £600,000.
(allegedly).
the police operation looks more like a murder scene!
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Journeyman
I had to laugh when I heard this this morning. Along with seeing Trump in court, this has really made for a great week!
Well, now we know the real reason why the wee Krankie stepped down suddenly.
Hopefully, this scandal will kill off any likelihood of the SNP forcing the break up the United Kingdom for the foreseeable future. -
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Hailstone message.....June 23 WT
by mikeflood innew jun 23 wt....elders to follow gideon example, even if instructions doesn't seems practical, gideon reduced army by 99 % and he obeyed, it could be changes in theocratic direction similar to this.
what that means?.
elders will need the courage to follow instructions "may relate to delivering a symbolic hailstone message...".. in another section "major world events may raise some from spiritual slumber".
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Journeyman
New Jun 23 WT....elders to follow Gideon example, even if instructions doesn't seems practical, Gideon reduced army by 99 % and he obeyed, it could be changes in theocratic direction similar to this. What that means?
I'm not sure if they're softening up the congregations for something specific they've already got planned, or just keeping their options open to do whatever they feel like doing at the time depending on how the winds blow in the near future, but it's clearly a change in the 'signals' being sent out, compared to GB1.0.
Much less about those days of "make the truth your own" and "convince yourself", today is all about "whether you believe it or not - just do as you're told!"
Hmmm, what happened to that message? Most likely, it was just psychological conditioning to keep us busy and not think about what we really could be doing with our time.
I remember those tract campaigns. I think it's not only that, but it's a complete change of direction from the top.
Since about 2010 or so, GB2.0 has taken the Org in a much more bizarre direction, although admittedly some of it is more in line with today's living (eg: more effort online, less in printed material). But all the turnarounds with adopting televangelism through the Broadcasting, Disney-fication of Bible stories (Caleb and Sophia cartoons, Bible story animations), creepy 'Christian' music, ditching or amending previous teachings to bring in their own (many of which consolidate their position, eg: making only themselves the FDS), making the GB (and favoured 'helpers') high-profile 'stars', grabbing congregation finances and Kingdom Halls, 'updating' the NWT, removing what remained of any actual study or scholarship in publications and meetings and making them video by-the-numbers sessions, giving up any attempt to 'reason' on the ministry in favour of playing video clips and pointing to the website ... the list goes on of ways the new GB have torn up their predecessors' 'legacy' (flawed as it was). -
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Some thoughts on the message of doom
by JeffT inone of the recent threads on the talk about the hailstone message got me to thinking.
the problem with putting out a message like that is what to do when nothing happens.
i have to think that somebody will be asking that question.
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Journeyman
I wondered about that. A group of priests and soldiers witnessed this, and none of them were moved by it. [...] Were they so driven that they dismissed something so incredible?
It's a good question. I think you put your finger on part of it there. Bear in mind that previously, the religious leaders and others who opposed him had claimed that any unexplained works he had done were because he "had a demon" - so even if they saw things that could be considered miraculous, they were so convinced that they were right and he was wrong that they probably attributed it to evil which had to be fought.
It's the same reason that I was always amazed that the Devil would continue to oppose God, despite knowing from long ago that his end would be in destruction. But sometimes becoming so fixated on your own actions can blind you to everything else, especially if you are eaten up with rage and/or hatred.
For those unsure, or who don't believe the whole 'spiritual' element, we know this happens in 'real' life too: some fugitives or criminals become so focused on what they want to do, that they become tunnel-visioned and ignore the massive odds stacked against them. Likewise with military leaders who will lead their forces into futile, suicidal campaigns because they are totally convinced of their own ideology and still believe they can win.
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Cost of living crisis
by ExBethelitenowPIMA induring the height of the pandemic all elders had to report to the co anyone who was struggling with bills or who couldn’t pay the rent.
the co reported it to the branch.. i don’t know what happens next.
do the branch help at all?
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Journeyman
This is a clear way in which the Org disregards a key part of Christian life in the 1st century (which they are supposed to have modelled themselves on).
They've occasionally referred to the "relief ministry", the fact that the early congregations gathered material things to support the poor in their midst - Acts 6:1-6 shows it was not just in times of disaster (eg: famine at Ac 11:28-30 and 2 Corinthians 8-9) but for everyday hardship. In the NWT, Paul calls it a "necessary matter" - so why doesn't the Org encourage and coordinate it? They've never followed that example - quite the reverse.
Following 'direction' from higher up, local congregations are mostly resistant to supporting needy members officially; they prefer to leave it to individuals to do it informally, and even then, they will counsel them not to get too 'involved' because of the danger of fraud or exploitation (I've seen that, and been on the receiving end of it for assisting others, too). But there would be less danger of any fraud and exploitation if the congregations organised such relief properly in the first place, as the Bible indicates they should.
Even congregation meals, parties and other 'gatherings' have been increasingly discouraged. Back before the 2000s, they used to be an accepted part of life for many JWs but GB2.0 seem to have done their best to crush even that 'association', which probably helped some poorer members to sometimes enjoy food and company they otherwise wouldn't have had.
Directing congregation members to state assistance is all very well where it exists and it's legal and possible to get it, but in many countries there is little or none, so what then? Even in countries with a social safety net the eligibility criteria are getting stricter.
Any chance a JW can ask Warwick HQ how they are spending donations?
The point about financial transparency at the top of the Org is a good one. Again, if they were really following a Biblical example, contributions were openly accounted for (donations and materials for building Solomon's temple for example - 1 Chronicles 29:1-7). They expect local congregation accounts and assembly overseers to account for every penny and present detailed accounts, but in true "mote-in-the-eye" fashion, fail to apply the principle of transparency to themselves and their vast income and spending.
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Mass Shooting at Kingdom Hall in Hamburg, Germany
by EdenOne inmass shooting at a kingdom hall in hamburg, germany this evening.
at least 6 or 7 killed, dozens injured.
single shooter on the run, police doesn't rule out more shooters.
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Journeyman
Why would you judge God any differently for doing something similar on a much greater scale?
The flaw in that reasoning is that humans are NOT God - not even close. If you believe that God is much greater, both in terms of power but also in understanding and ability to 'read' the heart, mind and motivation of people, then it's no comparison.
The problem with the people you mention - Nazis, 'radicalised' religious people, etc - is that they arrogantly elevate themselves to God's level (knowingly or unknowingly), thinking they have the RIGHT to take lives as they see fit. And in the case of those who think they are doing 'God's work' (such as that shooter, maybe), they compound the error by presuming to act 'for God'.
However, humans do not have the right to 'play God' in that way, precisely because we are just bags of water and meat, or 'mere grass that withers' etc, as the Bible puts it. We do not know what goes on in the mind and heart of another person so cannot judge them with total certainty, and we definitely cannot restore life to someone if we take it away in 'error'.
TonusOH put a finger on one crucial difference that entitles God to give - or remove - life: He made it, can remake it, and can give it back to whomever he chooses. He 'owns' the very concept of life - we do not.
Couple that with God being able to read the hearts and motivations of others, and to even foresee the inclination of people, (which no mere human can do with certainty) means that comparing God's right to kill with humans is comparing apples with oranges.
Such belief is a stepping block upon which more radicalized beliefs can be built: "If it is God's will to do it eventually and everyone agrees with it, than I could do it now and I'd be doing God's will. Now or later, what's the difference?"
That may be how such extremists think, but it should be obvious to everyone else how flawed that thinking is. It's not just about "now or later", it's about WHO does the killing (and why). Some extreme religions are more problematic with this because their 'holy' texts can be interpreted to appear to permit their members to do it (I'm thinking Islam, for example) but certainly for supposed Christians, it is clear from the NT that they should not be killing anyone themselves. -
11530
It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars
by Newly Enlightened inoriginal reddit post (removed).
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Journeyman
Goodness me, he does love the sound of his own voice, doesn't he? Almost seventeen minutes to just say "thanks for those who have contributed so far, but we need more money to survive (but I'm not begging); we need 500 patrons contributing to survive, 600-620 to move forward, otherwise we may need to scale back"? (The last minute was talking about other matters). He re-reads a message he's already sent out for about two minutes, then spends nearly FIFTEEN more saying more-or-less the same thing in about 2-3 different ways!
Perhaps the other members of “Ipsilon Media” should get together and get rid of him, since he is the liability here, and probably the easiest to replace too.
A good point! He is the 'brand' that has been tainted - it would be better all round for him to relinquish the host/interviewer role to a fresh face/voice and rebrand the channel, if he really wants Ipsilon Media to continue and perhaps be a success. That will never happen, of course.
Besides, what exactly is his channel supposed to be, going forward? It's not sustainable as a business model just to be a channel that discusses different religions. If he wants to make it more investigative, he will need insiders and contacts that it seems he no longer has due to his recent actions and indiscretions. -
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GB Update - Meet the new GB members
by eyeslice ini overheard my wife listening to '2023 governing body update #2, presented by kenneth cook jnr.
a few points i got from it.. new hour requirements.
quote "with the new hour requirements for pioneers, many us us can share in the pioneer work.
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Journeyman
Matthew 24:14 says to go forth and spread the gospel in all the earth, but I missed the part where it said pioneers must keep track of how many hours so they can turn in the required time slip each month.
I agree. Elder and even MS you could claim are scriptural roles, but there's nothing scriptural about 'pioneer'.
Ministry is supposed to be an intrinsic part of living as a Christian, not a specific hour requirement you check off every month and report back. Jesus' disciples returned with experiences to discuss, not an hourly report! Can you imagine the apostle Paul carrying a slip to mark off time, and saying "one more visit then I'll have done my time for the month"!
It's created a totally distorted attitude to ministry. Most of us will know the old "got to get my hours in"/"start my time by leaving a tract" thinking it breeds (and many of us maybe even used to think that way ourselves). Pioneers especially, end up thinking more about time and placements than about people.
Bringing it back to GB members, they of course encourage this thinking with all the fuss about how wonderfully spiritual it is to be a pioneer, and all the fawning over "fulltime service" in meeting parts and talks. They spend far more time emphasising that than, say, working on spiritual qualities (eg: the fruitage of the spirit) and being a better individual, married couple, family, etc.