Posts by Journeyman

33

Few JW leader have children

by slimboyfat in

it’s been discussed before that few jw leaders, past and present, have had children.

this is in contrast with other groups, such as the mormons, whose leaders have had a lot of children.

i wonder if this has impacted jw growth.

Journeyman

slim has hit on an interesting issue here.

Yes the WT Org has always had an awkward relationship with the idea of families and raising children.

For married couples, having children was often portrayed as a distraction, preventing them from serving more fully in the ministry.

And for those couples with the children, the children are usually shown as only of real "value" to the extent they remain associated with the congregation, growing up as little publishers (witnessing with tracts at school, etc) and then going on to - yes, you guessed it - fulltime service, Bethel or other "spiritual activity" as soon as they are old enough.

Likewise, the org as a whole has never known what to do with children in congregations. Unlike most other churches, there is no Sunday school or separate Bible training/schooling arrangement for "young ones". In fact, until the past 10-20 years or so, there was never even much in the way of different material for young ones compared to adults - children were expected to wade through the same kind of dense, complex scriptural material their parents did, in Watchtowers and Book studies!

For over a century, childhood has been treated by the WT org as if it's just an inconvenient phase between birth and becoming a fully baptised "full time servant" of Jehovah! And any children who don't end up like that are "erased" from the record.

It does also indeed explain why their "practical" advice to young people and their families has become increasingly out of touch and out of step with reality.

You never hear of any "exemplary" JW parents at assemblies or on videos commenting positively on anything their grown-up children have done if it doesn't involve "reaching out" in "kingdom service"! Even if they had kids who had just got on with life but stayed as JWs in their local congregation - that's not enough! They had to have done something much more "notable" like missionary work or Bethel service!

21

Applying the facial hair change in New Order portrayals

by careful in

i have a hard time watching the org's vids and reading the publications.

however, that's not the case with others here.

hence this post.

Journeyman

The Org is moving quickly to show beards on brothers and to normalise it as quickly as possible. Look how quick members of the GB were to adopt them.

I believe this is because it is one of the long-standing policies that the NEW GB realise was always completely stupid, and so they want to distance themselves from it as soon as possible, stop the discussions about it and move to a time when it APPEARS that it has always been so, ASAP.

They probably believe it's one of those low-stakes, "quick win" changes that can help to make the 21st C Org look more "normal", for minimal effort.

7

BOOK STUDY OR BIBLE STUDY?

by blondie in

jw
friends

*** km 9/76 p. 8 question box ***.

might a discussion using the bible alone be reported as a study?

(…) but at times persons are unwilling to use any literature other than the bible.

Journeyman

In the Kingdom Ministry October 2008 p. 1 the WTS finally quietly changed the Congregation BOOK Study to Congregation BIBLE Study "“Commencing January 1, 2009, the Congregation Book Study will be held at the same time as the Theocratic Ministry School and the Service Meeting. The name of the Congregation Book Study will be changed to Congregation Bible Study.”

Thanks for the clarification, Blondie. I knew it had changed during my time, but couldn't pinpoint exactly when. It must have been when they removed it from being a separate weekly meeting and integrated it into the other main midweek meeting. That was when they used the excuse they were showing brothers consideration and giving them an "extra" evening for their own "family worship"! So kind and loving! 🙄

I've always called it the BOOK study, and will continue to do so because that is exactly what it is. For all the semantics by the Org, it is really a BOOK written by WTBTS which is the basis for the study, with Bible verses threaded in around it, NOT a BIBLE study with some other publication(s) floating around it. It's obvious where the priority lies, especially since the trend started in the 1990s towards drawing specific attention to features IN the book, such as tables, graphs or illustrations.

14

So how do I get to "attend" a zoom meeting

by greenhornet in

jw
friends

do you have to be invited?

is there any way of listening in on the kh meeting?

it's been about 30 years since i have been to a kh and they would have a conference call of 4 people on the phone together because they were sick.

Journeyman

A lot depends on the size of congregation, how tight-knit it is and whether you still have informal contacts in there.

If you have contacts in a congregation that is big enough - that has a lot of people drifting in and out, lots of olders ones or ones with health issues that usually log on, etc - you might be able to persuade one of them to give you the login details. Just make out that you're not well but you'd like to get some "spiritual encouragement" or something like that. Might work.

9

Trump: "Too many holidays"

by SydBarrett in

jw
friends

“too many non-working holidays in america.

it is costing our country $billions of dollars to keep all of these businesses closed,” the president wrote in a truth social post..

“the workers don’t want it either,” he added.

Journeyman

“Too many non-working holidays in America. It is costing our Country $BILLIONS OF DOLLARS to keep all of these businesses closed,” “The workers don’t want it either,” he added.

Its the second sentence that makes me eyeroll. Yes, us 'workers' absolutely despise paid company holidays. What sort of lunatic would want a day off in the middle of the week?

What do you expect? It's Trump. Anything that comes out of his mouth is going to be stupid, ignorant or a lie. Or all three.

It will take a long time until many of his obsessive fan club will realise he is not the "genius" they think he is, but blatantly false and ridiculous comments like these - which hit at them and their lives and pockets personally - are about the only things that might - eventually - make them wake up.

All Trump's lies and ill-informed comments about history, politics and foreign affairs they couldn't care less about, as long as they personally profit from his presidency. But this kind of comment potentially affects even his core supporters.

128

WAR begins.

by lastmanstanding in

things are moving right along.

“israel” has gone to war with iran.. who is fooled?.

this is uncle sam, same as in ukraine.. daniel layed out clearly the events of “d day” june 6, 1944 as the “ships of kittim” would sail against the king of the north.

Journeyman

The inevitable surge in crude prices is manna from heaven to Russia right now. --Not really seeing why they would want to stop it.

That's true. It's entirely in Putin's interests to see a protracted conflict between Israel and Iran and their supporters/proxies in the Middle East, for many reasons:

It distracts the governments of major world powers, especially NATO/AUKUS
It inflates crude oil prices, and if it continues for a long while, other energy and minerals too
It draws world attention away from the death and destruction in the Ukraine/Russia warzone
It gives Putin opportunities to look "tough" and "statesmanlike" on the world stage or even try to play "peacemaker" - he will no doubt posture against Israel to curry favour with Islamic powers, but I'm sure secretly he would be happy to see conflict go on longer.

I also agree that it's not in the interests of either Russia or China to intervene. They would be better placed to stay on the sidelines and watch the "West" exhaust itself trying to mediate between the two sides and play the dirty political games that trying to resolve the whole mess in the region will drag them into (again). They may covertly provide support to Iranian-backing elements through purchasing weapons and materials, and providing intelligence for example (I can imagine Russia especially continuing to do this), but I can't imagine either providing direct support.

6

Am I a Return Visit?

by NotFormer in

jw
friends

well, i'm still processing this one.

saturday morning just gone.

my wife says: "there's a man in a suit at the door!

Journeyman

The whole recent thing about elders being encouraged to "persuade" publishers to drop RVs if they are not "progressing" appropriately is very odd and, like a lot of things, contradictory.

On the one hand, the message has always been "we cannot read hearts" and "it's not for us to judge or presume when only Jehovah knows if the person is ready and worthy", etc. And in recent times, with softening of the teaching about whether God will destroy every non-JW at Armageddon or not, that message has in fact been repeated more.

BUT

At the same time, the Org keeps pushing the idea that publishers should not "waste time" with "unproductive" Bible studies and return visits, and they have even given supposed indicators of evidence whether someone is making sufficient "progress", including this checklist from a few years ago:

Before discontinuing a Bible study, seek Jehovah’s direction in prayer.
While taking into account the student’s age or other limitations, look for indications of meaningful progress.

Does the person keep his appointments to study?
Does he prepare for the study?
Does he attend congregation meetings?
Is he making changes in harmony with Bible principles?
Does he share with others what he is learning?
Is he withdrawing from false religion?

In countries where JWs are being approached by many to have Bible studies I can perhaps understand this (allegedly, this is the case in some parts of Africa and South America, for example), but for most of the world I would imagine this is counterproductive to the ministry of most JWs. They have to make all of these assessments, potentially asking intrusive questions to do so, and at the end of it, might just drop an interested person leaving them hanging if they are not making what the Org deems the right "progress"!

That's when it emerged that one of the ladies from a previous visit had apparently said something about me being aggressive and argumentative. So it seems that they do keep some sort of record about what the households are like, if only a mental note.

Ah yes, well even though JWs have been sternly ordered NOT to keep any written records of their ministry now (at least in the UK and Europe - I don't know about elsewhere in the world), we all know that the Kingdom Hall is a perfect place for discussion of who lives where, what they're like and so on, and that applies to people met on the ministry just as much as fellow JWs! You're probably right that as a "brother" and one who needs to "get his hours in", he was probably either persuaded, or agreed, to take you on!

Bottom line is, if you want to make sure you DON'T become a "return visit" for longer than you're comfortable with, make sure you DON'T give that pioneer enough to say "Yes" to all of those checklist questions!

In all seriousness, just be straight with him. If you're happy to discuss Bible topics with him but don't want a study or anything more, say so. If you're happy to even study with him, but you will not take it any further, say so. Then let him make the call, but if he tries to push you beyond what you've agreed to, just draw the line and remind him, and stop it if and when you're ready.

I've always preferred that open approach with my return visits, and I respect when they can (politely) tell me "no thanks" or "that's enough", so I can move on and neither of us wastes each other's time!

17

Is There Some Sort of Campaign On?

by NotFormer in

jw
friends

on friday, i walked to my doctor's to pick up a couple of prescriptions*.

from there i walked in to town to the chemist's (pharmacy) to get the scripts filled.

it's winter here, and my town can get get colder than is average for my state**.

Journeyman

I mentioned the two trolleys/carts being set up at different ends of the main street and being manned by three men each, and my interlocutor didn't seem to have much knowledge of how the trolley/cart ministry worked.

Unless a "publisher" has been "approved" for public witnessing* by their local elders, they may not be sure about how it operates. The precise local details (dates, times and locations) are at the discretion of each congregation, so they would be agreed by the elders and passed down to the "approved list" of publishers. Each congregation (or group of congregations) maintains their own timetable/schedule for how it works. If your main street happens to mark a division between two congregation territories, that might explain why you saw two different groups on the same road.

The same might happen if one is English and another a foreign language, but presumably that was not the case as you would have noticed the difference (unless one was perhaps Sign Language, as their text can look similar but strangely "wrong" to non-SL readers!)

Generally, the approved list for a congregation would automatically include their pioneers, but you mention the man you met was an auxiliary pioneer (which is usually a temporary arrangement, one month at a time), so if he only does that from time-to-time he may not qualify. Or he may simply not have offered/volunteered himself to do it.

* - "Public witnessing" is what they officially call working locally on literature trolleys, though that's a bit odd, since it's all technically public witnessing! The other more "elite" version of this is "special metropolitan public witnessing", which is done at major city locations like railway stations or business districts, and is another "step up" from public witnessing, being organised by the branch and only available to the likes of experienced regular pioneers, etc. (Of course, the Org has to have a hierarchy in there!)

281

Where is Tony?

by Athanasius in

jw
friends

on february 22, 2023, anthony morris iii was officially removed from the governing body of jehovah's witnesses.

a few months later it was revealed that the watchtower bought him a house in lumberton, north carolina.. however, and correct me if i am wrong, since leaving the gb nobody has reported seeing tony attending jw meetings or participating in field service.

in fact nobody has reported seeing him anywhere, not even at a local liquor store.

Journeyman

There's presumably some sort of NDA between the Org and AMIII (which likely includes clauses over his right to the property and probably a stipend/pension for the rest of his days in return for him staying below the radar).

That being the case, if he has become "inactive" - stopped attending meetings and preaching, and dropped out of sight of the "brothers" - no-one will chase him to bring him back to the "flock", since there is likely a mutual agreement not to get in each others' way any more, since both parties probably hold enough dirt about each other to be equivalent to the Cold War policy of "MAD" (Mutually Assured Destruction)!

From a theological perspective, if they had to comment the current GB would probably explain it that as a former "anointed one", he knows what's required and what the consequences of walking away are, so there is no need to try to "readjust" him and bring him back. Either that or they would just say he is "unwell" and recuperating under the "care" of the Org.

17

Is There Some Sort of Campaign On?

by NotFormer in

jw
friends

on friday, i walked to my doctor's to pick up a couple of prescriptions*.

from there i walked in to town to the chemist's (pharmacy) to get the scripts filled.

it's winter here, and my town can get get colder than is average for my state**.

Journeyman

I'm not sure what their business model is. To be seen, but not to be actually doing anything of substance?

When the trolley* work first began, the original training was to hold up magazines and try to engage people. Rather like the old Witnesses used to do outside railway stations and the like. This led to a huge number of placements per month. We used to get a lot of people coming up to talk too.

I believe this was happening in a lot of other places too, and even photos in the old Kingdom Ministry for meetings at the time used to show Witnesses standing holding mags, as the "model" of how to do it.

After a few months though, reports must have got back to "Mother" in the USA that this was costing the Org a fortune, because suddenly the edict came down that we should NOT hold out publications, but instead leave them on the trolleys and "direct interested ones" to there for literature.

One of the excuses given was that we are not supposed to be like free newspaper distributors who dish out their copies only to see most left littering the streets or trains/buses. We are supposed to "value" our literature more highly (but surely getting the message into the hands of people is most important? You know, that "giving a witness" thing?)

I realised straight away that would fail, and I also (correctly) worked out that that would soon make the Witnesses staffing the trolleys disengage. If you're not holding literature and trying to catch people's eyes, what is there to do for an hour or more? The answer soon came: chatting among themselves and playing on phones or holding cups of coffee.

Over time, this "direction" became even more watered down: the Org has narrowed the number of items they suggest are made available on the trolleys, and all instruction generally steers people towards the website instead. More recent pictures have shown Witnesses (including GB members) standing at the trolleys using only a tablet.

So the initial success of the trolley work - placing literature and catching people's attention - was sabotaged by the Org itself, once it realised it came at a financial cost. This shows they were not really interested in spreading the message widely, getting more conversations and possibly even increasing members - not if it came with a price tag!

* = In the UK we generally don't call those mobile stands for literature "carts" but "trolleys". A small, hand-propelled container for carrying objects is usually called a trolley not a cart (shopping trolley, dessert trolley, etc). "Cart" is usually used to refer to a larger containerised transport, pulled by one or more people, or by animals.