Posts by Journeyman

72

The Watchtower's Depiction of 'paradise'..

by Ron.W. in

perhaps we could post the pictures the wt have presented in their literature that depict their version of paradise here for comment/discussion:.

from: spirits of the dead—can they help you or harm you?

do they really exist?.

Journeyman

Fascinating taking a walk down memory lane with all these images.

Many of the questions raised are valid, of course. I don't mean about Paradise itself - you can take or leave those according to your belief - I mean about the Org's deliberate choices about how to depict life in Paradise.

For example, here are my thoughts on some of the points raised:

Why waterfalls and bridges?

Good one. I hadn't really thought about it - well, the bridges at least. But I presume the waterfalls might be 1) an allusion to the verse in Revelation that talks about waters flowing down from the heavenly city, with trees growing alongside to give healing, or possibly if that's too "literal", maybe 2) simply that flowing, fresh water is considered a pleasing depiction of nature? Rivers, lakes and waterfalls usually feature in most favourite pastoral scenes, religious or otherwise.

Several of the regular depictions make sense when you know the JW theology, as most of us do, for example:

Animals and people close together, and vegetables and fruit but no meat-eating can both be explained by the beliefs around Genesis (Noah only given permission to eat meat later, suggesting vegetarian diet before then), and Isaiah (lion with lamb, little boy and cobra, etc) which the Jw theology attaches to future Paradise.

As for the language all the people are able to communicate in, following the account of Pentecost (and even some proven real life cases where individuals have begun to speak in a language previously unknown to them) this is explicable according to the traditional beliefs.

And what's the point of a Bible study?

Come on, anyone who was even briefly a JW knows this one: the resurrected will still need a Bible study to get to know about God and everything that happened during the time they were in the grave -fulfilment of prophecy and all that! Another point that, though we may not believe it, at least fits the theology. More interestingly, are they actually studying the Bible, or some watered down, over-simplified "study aid" like yet another Enjoy Paradise Now Forever United In Worship of What God Requires brochure/video mishmash?

40

2025 Convention Theme leak

by ukpimo in

according to the next boe letter to be read at next week's midweek meetings in the united states,.

the theme of the convention for next year is.

pure worship.

Journeyman

My initial thoughts on reading the OP's post were similar to Blondie and Beth Sarim.

Firstly, it really sounds like they have one of those fridge magnet word games to assemble convention themes and they just dip into a bag and pick a couple of them at random. Many of the themes for decades have had the same vaguely "spiritual" sounding word pairings, which are concise enough to trip off the tongue, but generic enough to fit whatever you want into them - especially pre-1996, as you can see from this page which lists all the convention titles in reverse order back to the 1940s:

https://rmovideo.blogspot.com/2017/05/all-jw-convention-themes-through-years.html

It's also interesting to note that while "Pure Worship" hasn't been used before, the word "Pure" was there in 1990 ("Pure Language") and "Worship" in 1951 (""Clean Worship").

Now the question is: if the worship was "clean" in 1951, and the spiritual language was "pure" in 1990, how come they were so different from each other, and that the worship of today is even more different from the teaching and worship in either of those years? Was it cleaner then? Or was it actually less "pure" then, and only clean now? What say you, Lett, Splane, et al?

20

Warwick sits on $70 billion?

by LaFrancia in

70,000 real estate properties at an average value of $100,000 and perhaps we can say (no one knows for sure) that warwick sits on $70 billion in real estate value.

in the video (deleted by jwborg but available on the avoid.jw website) of the 2018-19 coordinators' committee report (english) shown to all congregations at the mid-week meeting, we find several curious and interesting indications:.

- at minute 6.52 seconds you see some data .

Journeyman

I think this was discussed exhaustively in at least one thread a while ago, but obviously it's a moving topic so it's bound to come back up from time-to-time.

However, I agree with those who say that while $7bn sounds a massive amount of money to a single person (or a small business), it's actually pretty small beer in the scale of things for an international organisation, even a relatively small one like the JWs.

Also, how much of that money is actually freely liquid and available for use, and how much is tied up? Just because you make X on a sale, doesn't mean it's all immediately available like a wad of bank notes in your hand.

And how much are the legal fees, depreciation, and other legacy costs the org has? Not to mention - we never hear anything about their investments and how profitable (or not) those are likely to be.

Court costs and judgements, freezes and restrictions, and also - potentially - loss of charitable status in various countries could soon eat away at the bottom line (and probably already is).

Also, receipts from properties are a diminishing return if you can't keep building and selling at volume to keep it up, and the org now seems to be reaching a tipping point in their construction merry-go-round.

Before COVID, they seemed to have a nice little cycle going of build/refurb-sell-build again, but eventually they will run out of easy Halls to sell, and their most recent high profile construction projects like the Argentinian and Italian branches, and even Ramapo, seem to have taken longer than usual to complete or are stalling.

The biggest change seems to be a slump in the availability of free labour, as fewer of the R&F are willing or able to give up their time for the org. I think many are waking up to the way the org has been flipping properties, or at the very least they are simply tired and too busy with their own lives.

2959

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

Journeyman

To go along with Nic’s point, I think at this point, this thread is best used to track monthly Patreon declines and provide updates such as new court filings and stupid shit he posts.

I think that's pretty much how it's become, and that's fine. The numbers show LE is an irrelevance now, and he appears to have lost any desire or will to be bothered to keep stoking the fires either, thankfully.

Currently his numbers are up slightly at 318, but way below his previously lows around the 330 mark. At this rate he could definitely slip below 300 by the end of the year. How sad! 🤣 He's the living embodiment of the saying "you reap what you sow", which I remember reading in some book or other once...

On a different note, I only returned to this thread today to catch up with recent updates so missed a few previous comments. I really can't allow this ridiculous reply to an earlier comment to go unchallenged:

Stop trying to justify your far left Nazi rhetoric from your terrible authoritarian state.

While there can often be disagreement between the USA and UK (and other democratic nations) about extradition (see Julian Assange, Anne Sacoolas, etc), there is still no comparison between what Lloyd Evans tried to pull off and what the Metropolitan Police Commissioner proposed.

I presume you're just being deliberately provocative, because if you really believe that the UK is a "far left Nazi" "authoritarian state", you are more seriously deluded than I realised. Get that chip (or "french fry") off your shoulder and educate yourself better about other English-speaking nations - like the one that originated the language and culture in the first place, perhaps! 🤣

The accusation of being "Nazi" is just laughable and I'll put it down to you stumbling into the classic 'Godwin's law' fallacy trap. But if "far left" means not letting your youths be slaughtered in their hundreds every year in gun suicides and shootings, for example, then I'm happy to live in a country that doesn't "allow" that "freedom", thanks!

75

Would you be able to survive a three day Assembly?

by RULES & REGULATIONS in

the last assembly i attended was over 10 years ago.

the monotone speakers, boring talks, uncomfortable seats, long prayers and nodding off after the lunch break did me in.

i survived the morning sessions, but the afternoon sessions were brutal.

Journeyman

I used to fare better with the three-day conventions (they haven't used the word "assembly" for three-day events for a long time) than I do now.

The downsides of the old conventions were they were often in draughty sports stadiums, open to the elements, and, for non-US attendees, every talk or drama was all American accents (apologies to US readers, but the fact is most English-speaking JWs outside the USA got sick of hearing the same accents and phrases in everything, as if there were no capable speakers from the UK, Canada, Ireland, Australia or New Zealand), and with those weird cadences and exaggerated enunciation of Bethel speakers.

But the upsides were that they seemed more like actual meet-ups of friends back then, and the talks themselves seemed more engaging and meaningful then, with more mature speakers who (usually) seemed to have life experience. Today, it all feels a lot more flat, and it's all bite-size symposium items interspersed with frequent (largely pointless) video clips, and many of the speakers are very young "corporate" types. It all seems very "lite" - like a cross between an evangelical meeting, designed just to stir emotions, and some kind of children's Sunday school, with simplistic talks and videos.

These days though, because most conventions are held in event centres, it's easier to dodge out of them and find distractions, either by volunteering for assignments, or just by leaving the seating area and spending time elsewhere like the food hall or outside seating. And many have a local broadcast of the programme, so you can tune in and listen from the car park or outside area (if you want to) while doing other things, and just tune in and out as you feel like it.

The short answer for me is, I don't think I could cope with three days of just sitting listening (or watching) anymore, as I usually use the time to be active working on assignments or doing something else while the talks are going on. That provides a distraction from the parts of the programme I really don't want to listen to, and if I'm working I can feel I'm actually being useful rather than sitting passively having that simplified stuff wash over me.

4

Just Curious: Do JWs Count Their Time Spent in Chat Forums "Witnessing?"

by LauraLynn in

hi, all--i was just wondering, since there is emphasis on counting your witnessing hours in the jws, if they indeed count their time here and in other chat forums?

i happened to check the jws own chat forum, and it is closed to non-members.

i thought that it was interesting that they are free to come here, but we are not free to go there to discuss the bible.

Journeyman

Hi LauraLynn,

Your information is a bit out of date. Since last year, there is no requirement for JWs to report hours (unless they are pioneers), so the issue no longer arises for most.

Besides, the org has always strongly counselled against JWs debating online, as nicolaou said. In fact, it took them some years to get beyond the "Internet is bad" attitude and even make their own website!

JWTalk has been around for a while and to my knowledge (although I've never signed up for it) it's mostly JWs who do still consider themselves 'loyal', although the very fact they frequent that site means they're not strictly following the org's direction.

43

any JW construction going on other than Warwick?

by Magnum in

is anybody aware of any kingdom hall builds going on or any kind of ldc activity?

i've been wanting to ask this, and committeechairman's question at the end of this thread, http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/289353/ldc-semininar?page=4&size=20, moved me to go ahead and ask.. i've kind of wondered whether the org leaders got rid of rbcs and instituted the ldc arrangement because they wanted to be able to stop or slow down construction without it being obvious.

if the rbcs were still in existence, it would be obvious that there's nothing (or almost nothing) going on (if that really is the way it is) because rbc personnel would be idle when they were used to being busy.

Journeyman

They finished the new Bethel in Argentina earlier this year, but it seems (as from another thread) that the work on the one in Italy has stalled, or at least slowed significantly.

Ramapo still seems to be dragging on, but we don't hear much about it at the moment. Last video I found on the JW site was named "2023 update on..." but now that it's August 2024 we're over halfway into another year without there being anything new it seems.

Not a dicky-bird about any notable expansion in local Kingdom Hall builds anywhere either, or even mass renovations. I know of one new build, and a couple of minor repair works here in London, but not a lot.

Everything's much more low-key compared to a few years ago. Even accepting COVID would have set back a lot of plans, the initial buzz when congregations first came back together after the pandemic has fizzled out. I don't sense any huge excitement for "theocratic" projects, so I wouldn't be surprised if the GB are struggling to get the donations and volunteer labour they need to keep the momentum up on their desired construction plans.

The bubble seems to have finally burst - or at least it's deflating - on building up the property portfolio and turning it over for profit.

We also don't know what the state of projected finances is either - it could be that the JW bean counters are bracing for massive outlays on lost court cases in the USA and Europe in the near future and so are pulling the purse strings tighter?

14

Cedar Point Ohio 🙄🙄🤦🏻‍♂️

by xaminewt in

i started doubting the organization when i was 15. i spent the next 12 years doing in-depth research involving numerous emails with bible scholars and scientists.

i finally left the organisation 3 years ago.

technically i was never actually a jw as i was never baptised, so i’m not being shunned.

Journeyman

It's interesting that even the present-day GB realised what a mess they had on their hands with the legacy of all these overly-detailed and proscriptive "prophetic" statements about specific events in the history of the Bible Students' and early JWs.

That's why, a few years ago, they had a clear out by simply declaring that "types" and "anti-types" were to be discarded unless the Bible explicitly makes such comparisons.

The problem for the org is, at a stroke, they undermined the vast majority of all their detailed "justifications" for being Jehovah's sole anointed channel in modern times, as foretold from of old in Scripture. So no more are the anointed or elements of the organisation's history the "Greater or lesser" this or the "Typical or anti-typical" that.

I don't think even now most JWs realise the huge ramifications of the GB tearing up all of that "spiritual heritage" in one fell swoop. (JWs of the older generations, in mean - anyone who's been in the org less than about 15-20 years would have no idea anyway about all these old "prophetic" interpretations). All those articles, all those study publications - the two Isaiah Prophecy books, the Rev Climax book, the Jeremiah and Daniel books, etc - all consigned to a weird limbo where they exist buried in the JW Library as text only (and of course hard copies mouldering on the shelves of older Witnesses), but are never officially referred to in meetings or publications now.

For many older ones, it's probably why so many have now left or drifted and either become inactive or are just coasting along. What's the point, when everything you have invested your hopes and energies into for decades has now been erased at a stroke, by the very people who are supposed to be your "spiritual shepherds", feeding you "life-saving food at the proper time"?

2959

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

Journeyman

Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police Sir Mark Rowley is taking a page out of the Lloyd Evans playbook

Not really. There is an extradition treaty between the US and UK and a well-established history of exchanging suspects for trial.

True, some cases are more controversial, and the US does have quite a poor record of complying with international agreements and laws when it comes to allowing their own citizens to face justice abroad for their crimes (in stark contrast to their habit of invading other countries or putting serious pressure on other governments to extradite people they want to see in US-run courts), but still, the situation is hardly comparable to the relationship between the Croatian judicial system and the UK or USA.

23

How would you rate the Watchtower approved songs?

by Vanderhoven7 in

i was asking why jws won't sing any church hymns even if they were doctrinally correct.

jws asked me in response if i would sing any of their songs.. dan watkins wrote .

its a hilarious misunderstanding, if it does not come from the watchtower bible and tract society, then it is effectively considered as coming from satan.

Journeyman

The music is more and more "simplified" by the WTS and not for the good. [...] Songs were better in the beginning[...]. I expect a deeper descent into mediocrity.

I completely agree. The decline in quality is noticeable in the songs for meetings, and the additional "original" songs are almost entirely banal, corny and/or childish. Some are quite blatantly "Disneyfied", with awful animations and twee lyrics to accompany them.

Along with the JW ~~Televangelism~~ Broadcasting channel, it's a clear example of how the org has completely become what it once railed against. In the past, "Christian pop/rock" of the past was mocked (often quite rightly), but now the concept has been adopted wholesale. Witnesses who died before 2014 would be turning in their graves!

It's interesting how often the org bangs on about their "rich spiritual heritage", yet songs not currently on the "approved" playlist are never replayed, and anyone at a "gathering" bringing out an old CD or ripped media of Kingdom Melodies from before the new grey songbook was released would probably be looked at as if they were an apostate!