Posts by Journeyman

49

They are running out of people to do their stuff.

by liam in

this is the watchtower study article being studied today.

so it’s the current new light!.

what are the new qualifications to be an “elder-aka older man...and circuit overseer?.

Journeyman

They'll open MS and eventually elder to women.

Officially appointed MS, probably not, but do all the duties of an MS, but without any recognition.

Yes, the Org would probably argue that 1 Tim 3 makes it pretty clear that both elders and MS should be male: "a husband of one wife", etc.

But as Blondie says, congregations have made use of women before whenever there were insufficient suitable men around, and a lot of congs today have already got sisters doing microphones and working the sound desk, etc, due to the shortage of males stepping up.

They could always create a new internal role of "female MS" (Ministering Sister? Sister Servant?), rather like they did with "pioneer" - which is basically a made-up role with no actual scriptural basis too - and they could use examples like Dorcas and Lydia and Phoebe who were known to actively help in their congregations.

Presumably, it would be inferior to the MS role in terms of hierarchy as they would claim elder and MS are specifically defined in the Bible and are of course given to men - but the only way I can see them getting around the lack of available males in the longer term is to formalise an administrative role for women equivalent to that of MS. They could give sisters all the off-platform tasks of an MS (literature, accounts, microphones, etc) and just keep the on-platform talks for the males, since that's what they consider the key difference - teaching to the congregation.

I can think of some elder's wives who would probably love being given some fancy title and a more formal structure to their getting involved in the congregation. Some of those kind of JWs love all that, fussing around over details of how things are done.

2995

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

Journeyman

Maybe Lloyd can immigrate to Australia
No thank you very much!!!

I can see it now; Kim calls for an UBER pick-up... [etc]

🤣🤣

Woohoo! We're now into the 300th page - and this is the back-up thread after the previous one collapsed under the strain! 🤣

Somehow though, I doubt we will see another 300 pages about this character. Hopefully, he's finally running out of steam and will soon vanish into well-deserved obscurity.

The whole world - and even Evans himself - really needs him to disappear into some obscure corner, drop the whole "activism" con and live out the rest of his life in just an ordinary, inoffensive way without causing other people any more pain or needless drama.

Not sure it will happen that way though...

2995

It's been a long 9 years Lloyd Evans / John Cedars (continued)

by Simon in

jw
friends

uh oh, looks like the mega thread gave up the ghost, so while i investigate / fix it just continue the discussion here .... it's been a long 9 years lloyd evans / john cedars.

Journeyman

he will try to come back to daddy who has a big house with many bedrooms and go on disability allowance which is quite common.

I keep seeing people expect Lloyd to return to the UK. Perhaps that's possible, but I really can't see it. Then again, desperation can make people do things they never dreamt of, and if he really does hit rock bottom, and he clearly has no reasons to stay in Croatia (no proper job and no chance of any Croatian woman with an IQ above pond life wanting to have anything to do with him) then it might happen.

A lot would depend on:

what his relationship with his father really is - given that it was only recently that he came off the register of directors of his father's company, maybe their relationship has soured? It could be the marriage break-up and the circumstances around it got back to his parents, and that has led to an estrangement?
just what it is that is keeping Lloyd away. If it's simply that he doesn't want to be reminded of his past, he's obsessed with the idea that a post-Brexit UK is bad and he thinks he's better than his roots, then desperation might drive him back. But if there are darker and more serious reasons for him staying away as some people seem to suggest, then even the threat of homelessness and poverty would presumably not persuade him. He might prefer to try and take up with someone else he knows elsewhere in the EU (presuming he has a Croatian passport), maybe one of his (shrinking) band of "disciples"?

The words “stranded in Croatia” are revealing in more ways than one. [..] Those are words of a truly isolated and lonely man. [.]He’s lived there for over 15 years now, yet has no meaningful relationship with anyone

I've not followed his latest outpourings, and after several weeks of not seeing or hearing anything of him I can't bring myself to verify it personally, but from what those of you who have "taken one for the team" and kept up with his ramblings are saying, maybe he really is about to hit rock bottom. It's been coming for some years, like a slow-motion car crash, but now it looks like it's really starting.

The question is, will these self-searching thoughts of his lead to real "repentance", or just more self-justification? One clue will be what he does next. He can either wallow in self-pity and escapism, or he can make a plan for change in his life and work towards it. Given he is not yet 50 and seems generally in good health (physically at least), there is still time to make a pivot in his life and learn from all his mistakes, even belatedly. So far, he appears to have chosen the first option though, which is not a good sign, and if he keeps on down that road, his mental and physical health will soon decline further.

Another clue will be regarding how he acts over his daughters. If he continues to bemoan his disconnection from them but all he does about it is either 1) try to interfere with how Dijana is raising them or, 2) try to "punish" her by withholding financial support or behaving unreasonably over access, then that will speak volumes.

The best thing he can do is commit to a specific financial agreement and then either 1) negotiate properly with Dijana over access then stick to that arrangement, or 2) get out of their lives altogether until such time as each of the girls reach an age and maturity where they can choose if they want contact with him.

32

Whatever Happened to Those who returned to JEHOVAH

by raymond frantz in

https://youtu.be/3yylzu0bi_k?si=kku6r9szfenj3h9i.

whatever happened to those who came back to jehovah?

due to slow growth and the constant scrutiny from governments like norway in relation to their harsh disfellowshipping practices,last year in a move that no one expected the watchtower for the first time extended an olive branch to all those who left the organization or were disfellowshipped in the past.considering this practice was introduced over 60 years ago and with a rough estimate that around 100,000 leave jehovah’s witnesses every year the total number is in the several millions.so we should have expected millions to have accepted this invitation and rejoined the organization, the result though was an abysmal few thousands according to a recent jw update.. so now, for the first time, the latest watchtower study magazine for april 2025 gives us an inside view on how this reintegration is coming along, and it doesn't look good!.

Journeyman

The truth is, coming back after years of disfellowshipping or inactivity isn’t as simple as walking through the doors of the Kingdom Hall and being greeted like a long-lost family member. For many, the congregation is an entirely different place from what they remember, and the emotional weight of years spent shunned by their closest friends and family lingers heavily. A few polite smiles and obligatory handshakes might help break the ice, but they don’t erase the trauma of being cut off or the scepticism about whether things have really changed.

Not only that, but depending on how long the person has been away, the "truth" has changed beyond recognition in the meantime! Suddenly they have to adjust to a Revised NWT, tablets and TV screens everywhere, Disney-esque cartoons and soap-opera style dramas, key 'historic' teachings thrown out of the window, completely different structure to the ministry, and so on. Some of the things they will be expected to adapt to will be in direct contradiction to what they were originally taught (for example, the TV-evangelist-style JW Broadcasting)

Many of us who were around with the Org all this time and never even left felt disorientated by all the changes. Imagine how a returning JW will feel to see this completely different evangelical-lite "church" they're now part of!

32

"instructions that aren't sound by a human standpoint"

by mikeflood in

what could be "an instruction not sound by a human standpoint"?.

i'm going by dissolving their legal entities...any guesses?.

Journeyman

I think a lot of it has to do with the closing/sale of Kingdom Halls [..]
I don't see going back to private homes, at least in the US, due to liability/zoning/parking/ADA issues.

I certainly think the Org has little wriggle room on most activities - including the more extreme ones I listed, which I was just brainstorming - in most parts of the world, especially the more "advanced" places like North America, UK, Europe and Australasia. And they're aware of this, which is why they've kept the detail of what they really intend to do (should the GT actually happen) very quiet.

As the world is now, the most they can do globally is radically rearrange circuits and zones, selling off facilities and herding the R&F into different sized congregations/groups or locations as they see fit. They already started doing a lot of that. As part of it, they can also radically rearrange their own internal organisation, perhaps replacing COs with rotating localised elder appointments, adjusting the average size of congregations, changing meeting times, teaching and structure, and so on.

They might try tightening up financial demands, but unlike some other groups like Scientology and the Mormons, they're limited in what they can do there because they don't have enough control to demand specific payments from their followers, nor does their historic teaching encourage members to earn enough to be high-paying donors.

But currently, their only levers with the R&F are organisational and financial.

None of this means anything to the outside world, but big changes in these areas would cause huge ripples of discontent internally.

32

"instructions that aren't sound by a human standpoint"

by mikeflood in

what could be "an instruction not sound by a human standpoint"?.

i'm going by dissolving their legal entities...any guesses?.

Journeyman

Well, going by the context in which they used it, it would refer to action that everyone in the congregation will be expected to take. Dissolving legal entities or any other purely structural changes wouldn't quite fit that, unless it came with radical changes to what is required for the average JW in the R&F.

I'm thinking that it would mean something more like:

Restructuring whole circuits, disbanding or merging congregations across large areas - either making them into tiny satellite groups, or conversely, large mega-groups.
Going back to at least some online meetings or meetings in private homes might be included in that, especially if it was felt that "persecution" by authorities was coming.
Requiring JWs to make significant financial donations (tithing?), or to surrender certain material possessions
In extremis - if the GB really believe what they say and actually thought the GT is imminent - possibly even declare a particular date when JWs should abandon their jobs and/or leave their non-believing family members and move in together. Maybe not like those extreme high control groups that have established their own "communes" or "compounds", but perhaps more like these smaller churches that encourage groups of "disciples" to form "families" that share households? That would both increase the ability to control, and consolidate material assets among local Witnesses.

Some have feared that they might "do a Jim Jones" but I've always thought that's ridiculous and completely outside anything the JWs have ever stood for.

The funny thing is though, that events, and the behaviour of the GB, even since that dramatic statement was first made, have radically changed again. At that time, all the output from the Org was leading to an almost "doomsday" style showdown with the world, accompanied by hiding in bunkers and being hunted down by black-clad army/police with automatic weapons and armoured vehicles.

But now, the messaging seems to have changed again, with the recent changes hinting at a less isolationist and more conciliatory tone with "the world" - softer messaging in the ministry towards destruction at Armageddon, more emphasis on God being the one to choose who he will allow to live and be resurrected, more emphasis on being "conversational" in the ministry, relaxing dress code, more encouragement to get faders and the disfellowshipped back, etc.

It all seems to send a confused message, for anyone who has been trying to follow the general direction the Org has been taking for the past 20-30 years.

18

2025KingdomMinistrySchoolPrograms2025Special**Talk!

by Atlantis in

jw
friends

https://pdfupload.io/docs/d302ea8c .

( i hope i am doing this ok for everybody.

if i am messing up anywhere just let me know how to correct any of my errors!).

Journeyman

A couple of observations from both outlines:

1) Interestingly, the item called "Be Guided by Bible Principles", which sounds like it should be essential and form the basis of any teaching to "appointed men", is tucked away in the middle of the programme for servants and even later for elders, not right up front.

2) Comparing the two outlines, I see the one for Elders ends with the item "You Deserve 'Extraordinary Consideration'" whereas the one for ministerial servants is simply "We Hold You Dear" (which seems about as sincere as the GB's "We all love you very much", parroted at the end of every update video).

It sounds like the GB are continuing to blow smoke up the backsides of elders, feeding the false sense of their own importance, using 1 Thess 5:13 to do so.

This is a bad move for two reasons. For the majority of elders who probably feel tired, stressed and increasingly unsure about the direction of the Org, it gives no real reassurance to be patting them on the back and telling them how important they are, while continuing to dump more edicts and changes on them. On the other hand, for those elders who already think they are special and are God's "gift" to their congregation, their egos don't need any more massaging.

5

Does Jehovah have a sense of humour

by moomanchu in

jw
friends

we are created in his image so he has to have a perfect sense of humour.

.. the comedy started first thing:.

hey you two dummies.

Journeyman

I remember that in many congregations it would often be said behind the scenes:

"Of course Jehovah has a sense of humour. Look at who he has made GB members/circuit overseers/congregation elders!*" 🤣

* - delete as applicable

39

20250115**Ages For Ministerial Servants and Elders!

by Atlantis in

jw
friends

2025-01-15-ages for ministerial servants and elders.. see page 2. .

https://pdfupload.io/docs/1b0b5c00 .

https://imgbox.com/p3a9yjmr.

Journeyman

I know of at least three brothers who do not want to become elders, not due to a lack of capacity or availability, but due to a lack of agreement with the teachings.

True, and not only that, but also all the additional stuff which brothers are increasingly seeing as internal "admin" or "politics", not necessary spiritual activity. I'm thinking of all the jostling for position between elders, ministerial servants and pioneers; the constant obsession with doing more... more... more... and giving more materially; the other obsession with avoiding anything that looks even slightly of seeking material comfort or stability (better job, promotion, higher education or training) or of allowing personal time for yourself and your family - not to mention all the admin work demanded by the Org for elders to do regarding talks, accounts, congregational reports and activities, cleaning, maintenance, etc.

Few of these things are truly rooted in the Scriptures or essential for a Christian congregation to exist, and so many brothers are understandably seeing them as unnecessarily burdensome and are choosing to opt out.

27

Making Friends with Babylon the Great: Watchtower’s New Goal

by raymond frantz in

https://youtu.be/iv_uifab-qg?si=ttnajiuizmtqlte9.

it began during the last annual meeting of 2014 and now is trikling down to their watchtower magazines, this new "live and let live" attitude towards people of other faiths, or as they were known as babylon the great soon to be dead in the hands of god members.but it is a new different story, so let's read paragraph 15 from study article 15:.

"jehovah is kind to both the righteous and the unrighteous.

Journeyman

This is nothing less than WT admittling that they never believed the old filty whore schtick about churches, just as they never believed the fear porn about the UN being the wild beast of Satan when they agreed to support UN objectives while they were listed as a UN NGO.

It's not quite as simple as that. It's quite possible for someone to believe two or more contradictory things - most of us do in some aspect or other of our life, whether religion, politics, our working life or whatever.

So within the JW org there are those, from top to bottom, who DO believe (and have always done so) that all other religions are "Babylon the Harlot", and that the UN is the prophesied "image of the Beast". The official teaching is still that all political elements will come together to attack JWs, so although it is less overtly stated that the UN will lead that attack, it is clearly still doctrine that the majority, if not all, of nations will come together to fight against God, which is basically the UN by any other name (or its successor, should there be such an organisation). JW teaching is still clear that the UN as an organisation is heading into oblivion because it fundamentally opposes God.

However, what IS happening is a lack of unity and clarity over many beliefs that used to be "set in stone". This is because the apparently ironclad certainty of Fred Franz's teachings before the 1990s has broken down and there is no longer such total consensus from the top down. I think it is these divisions and schisms that have led to the radical changes we have seen since the 2010s - "new" NWT bible, dumping of "types and anti-types", videos everywhere, JW ~~televangelist~~ Broadcasting channel, "original" songs, changes on ministry and fashions, and who knows what else to come - and was possibly even behind AMIII's departure from the GB.

Where it's going, who knows, but sooner or later the Org is going to get itself openly caught in a contradictory "Catch 22" kind of bind over its past, present and potential future teachings. It's already approaching that with the whole supposed justification for the total "divine authority" of the GB. The cracks have started to show since the Australian Royal Commission and then the WT where they admitted to not being "infallible". As time goes on and they have to concede more and more - including probably to secular courts and governments - their assumed unique spiritual position will look increasingly shaky, and once that goes, all the other reasons - the "incentives to stay" that Vidiot mentioned - will collapse.

The JW org has been so certain of its "destiny" up until recently, that I suspect the GB are now panicking behind closed doors, wondering what they should do to buy more time before they expect God to save them. I think at least a significant number of key figures still believe those main doctrines about Babylon and the UN, but they are trying to play clever - "theocratic warfare" - and please all sides, especially to protect the cashflow. That's bound to end badly, either way, since they've neither been honest with the "wordly" organisations, nor true to their own teachings (which, if true, would mean they have been doing exactly what they accuse "Babylon" of doing and "sharing with the world", which would displease God and Jesus too).