Posts by Goodstein

14

Is Life Good For You At This Time?

by minimus in

jw
friends

since you are learning or have learned the truth about the truth, how are you handling things?

are you happy, depressed, confused?

.

Goodstein

I'm happier now than I ever have been since I was a child, because I have my intellectual integrity back and my conscience isn't constantly bothering me for promoting stuff I know is false. I still get nagged by my JW family to do JW stuff, and they just don't seem to be able to take a hint, but that's merely annoying. (For now.) Also, I look forward to the weekend for the first time in my life, hehe.

The transition between "JWs are right about most things" to "JWs are wrong about many things and are in fact worse than many other denominations" was stressful, but prayer, meditation and research got me through it. I only told one of my non-JW friends about what I was going through, but that helped a lot.

I feel really bad for people who have a sudden realization and confront the elders, and must instantly choose between integrity and their whole social world, with no time to develop non-JW friends... at least they don't have to put up with as much nagging, but it must be a small, if any, consolation.

44

Major goof in the Sept 1 WT article on Babel and the origin of languages

by marmot in

just wanted to point out something that another poster brought up in the thread on the agm rumours, the writing department included a photo of a cuneiform tablet in their article on the origin of languages with a caption that states it is from 3000 bc.

this would pre-date the global flood myth and the fanciful tower of babel story altogether, hah!.

Goodstein

Just a minor note: Sumerian is a language isolate unrelated to Hebrew or other semetic languages, although Akkadian, another semetic language, has substantial influences from Sumerian in terms of vocabulary at least (similar to the relationship of Latin to English.)

18

Any JWs on here that still believe?

by cognac in

jw
friends

it would be nice to start a thread with those people to reason things over in the bible.

no name calling, no putting others down, etc.

it would be nice to show this to my husband without him seeing things like, "if you were a real jw, you would not be on here to begin with.

Goodstein

Calling the WTS a cult is calling a bum a bum. It's true - not polite, but true. Sometimes impolite but true language is warranted.

On the other hand, saying "Jahober" or whatever is stooping to gradeschool level mockery (to my ears, perhaps even mocking someone with an African-American accent who has an 'intrusive R'), and I don't really think it's appropriate. Especially as "Jehovah" is a (itself badly flawed, but meant sincerely) attempt to render the Divine Name into English. I don't believe in the Hindu deities, for example, but I don't make fun of them or their names, because it would be offensive to those who did believe.

At any rate, I still believe in God, and the Bible, although I do not consider it inerrant. (I take it "seriously, but not literally" in the words of one scholar Marcus Borg.)

56

The Apostle Paul VS. Jesus Christ---Were They On The Same Page?

by minimus in

jw
friends

if you believe in the bible, it's hard to reconcile that paul acted very christlike.

he was always instituting rules and opinions that might be construed as rather harsh.

christ on the other hand exuded love.. do you think they both had the same views in handling matters with people?.

Goodstein

The relationship of Paul and Jesus is one that I find very interesting. They've definitely got distinct ways of conveying their message, although I don't think Paul is out of harmony with Jesus, rather speaking to different circumstances. I value Paul as a seminal Christian teacher and regard his letters as amply worthy of serious consideration, but consider only the teachings of Jesus himself to be binding on all Christians at every time. Paul's authentic writings are, after all, addressed to specific congregations and situations. He was also an imperfect man who may have had a tendency to be legalistic, given his background. Of the major voices in the NT other than Jesus - I resist (on Paul's fine advice!) - to associate myself as a disciple of a particular one, but I do find that James "speaks to my condition" (as George Fox might have put it) a bit better than Paul.

(Note I don't mean "legalistic" in the sense of "adherant to the Mosaic law" which is nonsense in light of Paul's obvious antinomian streak compared to many other early Christians, I mean it in the broader sense of "making up rules for the Christian congregation" with an allusion to his concern for purity of the church.)

18

Letter to the local paper...again.

by tresdecu in

jw
friends

last year i wrote a letter to the religion writer at the local paper.

didn't get very far...but thought i'd do it again.

can't hurt, right.. here it is:.

Goodstein

I used to work in News Service (i.e. public relations) and as far as I know, we never paid publicists to include things. (Or hired them at all.) We just sent out a LOT of press releases, and occasionally got some bites. We would set up a little display of current JW literature for the media, and provided minders if reporters showed up (which happened sometimes, more often at the earlier conventions, since presumably they get tired of the same cookie-cutter press release stuff.) We would arrange interviews with known-good rank and file witnesses for them if they wanted, and generally ensure that they saw the best side of things, but were not actively deceitful.

I do remember receiving explicit instructions to dodge the blood issue if it came up. It's unfortunate that they seem to realize it's indefensible, but don't act on that knowledge. (Without the blood issue, I don't doubt that I'd still be in and just having some doubts about 607 BCE and a few other things.)

54

Planning exit, alternative venues to preach?

by Goodstein in

background:.

i've come to the conclusion that many doctrines of the wts are unscriptural after many years of privately disagreeing with some of them but feeling that the society was "mostly right" and still being used by jehovah.

this turning point has happened in the last year or so.

Goodstein

LisaRose,

I've always been unusually nonconfrontational about doctrines in talks - really tried to be more informative than argumentative. I have no problems presenting both sides of an issue, and I ususally focus my talks on uncontroversial exegetical / linguistic issues, leaving "what should I belive" to be answered by the indiviudal audience members. If I get a "why is doctrine of 'Christendom' X wrong" sort of talk, it's usually sufficient to trace the historical development of the doctrine and then in the JW worldview it's self-evident that X should be rejected if X appeared first in paganism, etc... I don't have to say it is and act all authoritative.

I've done this for years and nobody has ever bothered me about it. I think people get tired of talks of the form "(insert literally any scripture here) means we must (sell our houses and pioneer, burn sparlock toys, realize the end will come in 3-5 years)" and to the extent that they are listening at all, actually like to hear about what scriptures meant to the people who wrote them, based on historical or internal evidence.

Of course, there's certainly a need for solid homeletical talks, but it's never been my strong suite, and so changing my beliefs about some matters of faith wouldn't alter what I'd say all that much.

That said, I already mentioned that I agreed with the need to get my own beliefs figured out before I attempt to resolve this "burning fire shut up in my bones" feeling by preaching in whatever context. I am continuing to read various bible commentaries to that end.

54

Planning exit, alternative venues to preach?

by Goodstein in

background:.

i've come to the conclusion that many doctrines of the wts are unscriptural after many years of privately disagreeing with some of them but feeling that the society was "mostly right" and still being used by jehovah.

this turning point has happened in the last year or so.

Goodstein

That's a good point, really, that the blood doctrine has to be weighed against the smoking doctrine, and things only get more complicated from there - the mental illness caused by shunning versus the social stability other people get from it, keeping families from breaking up in trivial divorces versus keeping people in abusive relationships, etc. It's not an easy call.

It's the high control aspects - not being allowed to leave without drastic social consequences, the information control, the demand for perfect loyalty - that primarily make it a cult. For health effects and time demand, it's not quite a wash, but the situation isn't totally clear either, in my opinion.

54

Planning exit, alternative venues to preach?

by Goodstein in

background:.

i've come to the conclusion that many doctrines of the wts are unscriptural after many years of privately disagreeing with some of them but feeling that the society was "mostly right" and still being used by jehovah.

this turning point has happened in the last year or so.

Goodstein

It would indeed appear that the death toll from the blood doctrine is higher than I thought. I only personally knew of two cases of Witnesses dying of it, and one of them might well have died anyway, so I'd have estimated lower.

My mind still boggles and how that ever, ever seemed like a reasonable interpretation of the Bible...

54

Planning exit, alternative venues to preach?

by Goodstein in

background:.

i've come to the conclusion that many doctrines of the wts are unscriptural after many years of privately disagreeing with some of them but feeling that the society was "mostly right" and still being used by jehovah.

this turning point has happened in the last year or so.

Goodstein

I really enjoyed that article about Les Mis. Thanks.

I am yet to explore the various interpretations of the significance of Christ's sacrifice. This business of God paying the ransom of a human saccrifice to himself on abstract principle always seemed a bit odd to me, but I've explored soteriology barely at all. Will read up.

54

Planning exit, alternative venues to preach?

by Goodstein in

background:.

i've come to the conclusion that many doctrines of the wts are unscriptural after many years of privately disagreeing with some of them but feeling that the society was "mostly right" and still being used by jehovah.

this turning point has happened in the last year or so.

Goodstein

You raise a valid point - certainly the WTS alienates people's natural affections for their family - I just have a difficult time seeing how that compares with the cults described in Hassan's first book, who do all that and more. JWs are much less high-pressure, too, with making converts. Or at least, my family always was. (Maybe that's why we never seemed to make any in spite of all the pioneering, thank God.)

If you are saying that the defintion of a destructive cult should be broadened to include JWs (as perhaps it has been in Hassan's new book, which I will read when I get the chance), that's fine, I just don't think they meet all of his definition in the first book. The political mainstream too seems to consider JWs a legitimate religion, even granting that lobbying may have influenced this a lot. If on the other hand, you're sure it's not only a destructive cult but also every bit as destructive as the Moonies or Scientology, you're absolutely entitled to that opinion, but I don't agree with it. I think there are worse cults by far.

Our perspective may be different, especially if we've had bad experiences with them - and in the interests of full disclosure, I've had mainly positive experiences. I'm a theological dissenter troubled by increasing totalitarianism and inconsistencies between WTS teaching, the Bible, history and science, not someone who was suddenly shunned by all their family over breaking some man-made rule or refusing to break off contact with a friend who was. I can imagine how I'd be a lot more negative about the society if my position were different.

Anyway, goodnight; I need to get some rest.