"Keep doing this in remembrance of me... unless of course you have a communicable disease, then just wash your hands and sit quietly over there...way over there. Oh, and I'm not going to wash your feet before dinner this time either..."
undercover
JoinedPosts by undercover
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58
G.B. ARRANGED A MEMORIAL WITHOUT EMBLEMS!
by The Searcher inweird!.
http://ilynca.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/unforgettable-memorial.html?spref=fb.
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GB approves entertainment auditioning for international delegates.
by suavojr ini don't know if this was mentioned but i spoke with a jw from atlanta, georgia that informed me that the great gb has approved jw auditions.. yes, you read that right!
now the jw's will have their own jw idol, jw voice, and dancing with jw stars, lol.. they are using an assembly hall in atlanta and jw's from all over are auditioning from 8am till 6pm.. supposedly the idea is to have live entertainment for the delegates traveling from overseas for the international conventions.. he said they have had jw's who can play all the hits from the beatles, play merengue, salsa, sing, dance, etc.. the gb is trying hard to make their cult look normal.. some of the questions this rises are,.
will it work?
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undercover
God, er, Jehovah forbid that delegates from overseas get to sightsee or enjoy local music/entertainment venues. Let's keep those foreign dubs pure and chaste by not letting them experience real American honky-tonks, or discos, or stage plays. Instead round them up, lock em in a room, and force them to be entertained by local dubs whose music knowledge and tastes ranch from 50s/60s 'oldies' to Kingdom Melodies.
And if you do play the Beatles, keep the lyrics clean. "I Want to Hold Your Hand" must contain the changed lyrics, 'I want to hold your hand...while on a properly chaperoned WT approved group date'...
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Your Experience with Resigning as an Elder
by committeechairman ini'm considering resigning as an elder.
i'm not planning to fade or stop as one of jehovah's witnesses, just stop serving as an elder.. i have responsibility in the congregation and in circuit, district, rbc, etc.
and i'm completely exhausted.
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undercover
Never was an elder, and I didn't have to resign as MS, got the boot, which was fine with me at the time...
...But a friend (at the time) stepped down for some of the same reasons you list. And when he got blowback from the rest of elders, he stood up to them and said that his family came first and foremost, and it was his duty as head of the house to make sure he presided over them in a fine manner. He knew that he could not carry the burden and didn't really care what they thought or did, he was doing what he had to do to manage his sanity, his health, and serve his family. I always respected him for that. To not only stand up to the peer pressure but to know your limit and when to say, 'it's time to pull back and focus on what's really important' instead of trying to juggle everything the WTS throws at elders.
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So sorry to report... this memorial was not the last one
by suavojr innothing new to report... this memorial was not the last one (sigh) :(.
on top of that, the assistance for my hall was the same as last year.
i don't see how they will break the 20 million mark.. also, with the current trend the brothers who partake publicly will most likely pass the 14,000.. how was the memorial in your part of the world?.
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undercover
A diehard JW in my family made the infamous true believer comment a couple of weeks ago, "This will probably be our last Memorial before the end..." I just roll my eyes and leave the room when that kind of mess is started. I try hard to never argue with delusional types, but another JW family member, one who is still in, still believes, but isn't completely braindead and has moments of clarity jumped their case and told them, "don't say that. Saying those things is what makes people think we're crazy. We don't know when the end is and pretending to know only makes things worse, so knock it off".
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Memorial Musings
by undercover ina few things noticed in last nights annual, jesus who?
gathering:.
1: only one scripture from the gospels was read or cited.
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undercover
They did read from 1 Corinthians... Right before passing each emblem
But Corinthians is not part of the gospels... Supposed first hand accounts (if you believe in the Bible) of the apostles who lived along side Jeseus and witnessed his ministry and death.
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Memorial Musings
by undercover ina few things noticed in last nights annual, jesus who?
gathering:.
1: only one scripture from the gospels was read or cited.
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undercover
A few things noticed in last night’s annual, ‘Jesus who? Gathering’:
1: Only one scripture from the Gospels was read or cited. One. As in, ‘it’s the loneliest number ‘. The rest were from 1 Corinthians, Revelation and Isaiah.
2. ‘Isaiah?’ you ask… Yes, a good portion of the Memorial talk was an infomercial for the paradise earth that you, yes you in attendance, can enjoy forever… if you call this number today… or something like that.
3. The words, ‘Faithful Discreet Slave Class’ were not mentioned…at all.
4. The 144,000 is still a literal number. They are the Little Flock and Anointed. And only their remnant should partake.
5. The number of partakers from last year was not cited. Not even referenced. They did mention how many attended. Whooppeee.
6. The speaker was a Bethel elder, visiting the area. He gave a new illustration to show how meaningful the ransom sacrifice is. Say you were diagnosed with a terminal illness but could not afford the medical procedure to save your life, no matter how much you pooled yours, your families, your friends, etc, resources together. Without that procedure you would die ( I wondered if that procedure involved blood transfusions but I digress). But along comes a single benefactor to pay for everything in order that you could have that procedure and live. What a loving thing to do. And that relates to what leads me to the next point…
7. A paraphrase from the speaker at the end of his illustration, ‘what a sacrifice that…’ wait for it… No. Not Jesus. Don’t think ahead now. ‘What a sacrifice that Jehovah made in sending his son to die in order pay that ransom’. Wait. What? What about the guy who actually did the dying? The guy that gave up his cushy cloud in heaven and slummed it down here with lowly humans for 33 years and then had to give himself up for sacrifice? Wow. And this is supposed to be a Memorial for him after all.
8. Overall, most people seemed to be in good spirits, friendly, etc. But yet, and this is hard to describe… there seemed to be an emptiness behind their smiles and eyes. I know that most are sincere in their faith, but do they know real happiness from what they are told is happiness? People I've known for decades have not changed (except older and heavier)... at all. They act the same, think the same, behave the same as they always have. Nothing new or exciting. It's a bit surreal. Are they programmed to ‘think’ they’re happy? Is this like a bad B-grade sci-fi movie? Instead of Westworld, is this JW-world? Robots trained to behave a certain way.
9. Overall, I've noticed that the talk is more dumbed down than ever. Very little about Jesus' life. Nothing about his ministry. Nothing about his arrest and trial. Less mention of Adam this year. Just enough to say, 'Adam lost perfect life. Jesus' died as a ransom'. No explanation in detail. It's like the Cliff notes of what a Memorial should have been. The rest of the talk was about who does, and doesn't partake and how great a paradise earth is and what we need to do get there.
10. And finally - the speaker alluded to, and it was quick, the fact that we could live to see the end of this system and live through to the paradise. He didn't dwell on it. It was so quick it was almost subliminal. Yet, it was there. Dangling that 'live forever' carrot is part of their M.O. still
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What usually happens after the memorial?
by Frazzled UBM indo members of the congregation usually have a meal together after the memorial?
does the fact that my wife has decided not to travel across town to her filipino congregation and is going to the local one instead and wants to be picked up when it finishes at 8 pm mean that she hasn't been invited to a meal with her filipino congregation and that she is being socially excluded by them?
i think this is good news but i don't want her to get caught up with the local congregatin because i don't want them coming around to pressure her to attend when she is irregular.
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undercover
Well, back when I was active, I was a bit younger... but yes, we always got a group to go out after the memorial. Sometimes it was a simple outing, maybe a pizza parlor or similar, but then it got to be bars and late night joints. We traded the stuffy, well-behaving dubs for some fun-loving ones, and ventured into the city night life, looking for...and sometimes finding...excitement that is generally frowned upon in JW-land. (wink wink nudge nudge)
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Something to pay attention to, if you go to the Memorial...
by undercover ini'm cutting and pasting from one of my own posts from some timem ago.
if you're having to go to this thing tonight, pay attention to how the speaker explains the timing of events at the passover meal, and then compare that to what the bible actually says.... an oldie, but one of my better goodies, i think.... .
yes, it's time for that annual ritual...no, no...not the ritual of nibbling on crackers and sipping cheap wine, but the ritual of comparing wt teachings of how jesus instituted the memorial versus what the bible actually says.. current wt theology.... as cut and pasted from their own website:.
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undercover
I'm cutting and pasting from one of my own posts from some timem ago. If you're having to go to this thing tonight, pay attention to how the speaker explains the timing of events at the Passover meal, and then compare that to what the Bible actually says...
An oldie, but one of my better goodies, I think...
Yes, it's time for that annual ritual...no, no...not the ritual of nibbling on crackers and sipping cheap wine, but the ritual of comparing WT teachings of how Jesus instituted the Memorial versus what the Bible actually says.
Current WT theology.... as cut and pasted from their own website:
http://watchtower.org/e/19980315/article_01.htm (old link, may be dead. I didn't check it)
Jesus knows that one of these men—Judas Iscariot—has already arranged to betray him to the religious leaders. Understandably, he becomes very distressed. "One of you will betray me," he reveals. The apostles are highly grieved at this. After celebrating the Passover, Jesus tells Judas: "What you are doing get done more quickly."
Once Judas has left, Jesus introduces a meal to commemorate his impending death. He takes a loaf of the unleavened bread, expresses thanks in prayer, breaks it, and instructs the 11 to partake. "This means my body," he says, "which is to be given in your behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me." He then takes a cup of red wine. After saying a blessing, he passes the cup to them, telling them to drink out of it. Jesus adds: "This means my 'blood of the covenant,' which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins."
This is what I was taught and believed without question for all my life, up until I started openly questioning anyway. Once I started questioning WT doctrine I started reading the Bible independant of WT publications.
Let's compare that WT teaching with what the Bible actually says:
Matthew chapter 26:
20 When, now, it had become evening, he was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples. 21 While they were eating, he said: “Truly I say to YOU , One of YOU will betray me.” 22 Being very much grieved at this, they commenced each and every one to say to him: “Lord, it is not I, is it?” 23 In reply he said: “He that dips his hand with me in the bowl is the one that will betray me. 24True, the Son of man is going away, just as it is written concerning him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been finer for him if that man had not been born.” 25 By way of reply Judas, who was about to betray him, said: “It is not I, is it, Rabbi?” He said to him: “You yourself said [it].”
26 As they continued eating, Jesus took a loaf and, after saying a blessing, he broke it and, giving it to the disciples, he said: “T AKE , eat. This means my body.” 27 Also, he took a cup and, having given thanks, he gave it to them, saying: “Drink out of it, all of YOU ; 28 for this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins. 29 But I tell YOU , I will by no means drink henceforth any of this product of the vine until that day when I drink it new with YOU in the kingdom of my Father.” 30 Finally, after singing praises, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
Mark chapter 14:
17 After evening had fallen he came with the twelve. 18 And as they were reclining at the table and eating, Jesus said: “Truly I say to YOU , One of YOU , who is eating with me, will betray me.” 19 They started to be grieved and to say to him one by one: “It is not I, is it?” 20 He said to them: “It is one of the twelve, who is dipping with me into the common bowl. 21 True, the Son of man is going away, just as it is written concerning him, but woe to that man through whom the Son of man is betrayed! It would have been finer for that man if he had not been born.”
22 And as they continued eating, he took a loaf, said a blessing, broke it and gave it to them, and said: “Take it, this means my body.” 23 And taking a cup, he offered thanks and gave it to them, and they all drank out of it. 24 And he said to them: “This means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many. 25 Truly I say to YOU , I shall by no means drink anymore of the product of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.” 26 Finally, after singing praises, they went out to the Mount of Olives.
Luke chapter 22:
14 At length when the hour came, he reclined at the table, and the apostles with him. 15 And he said to them: “I have greatly desired to eat this passover with YOU before I suffer;16 for I tell YOU , I will not eat it again until it becomes fulfilled in the kingdom of God.” 17 And, accepting a cup, he gave thanks and said: “Take this and pass it from one to the other among yourselves; 18 for I tell YOU , From now on I will not drink again from the product of the vine until the kingdom of God arrives.”
19 Also, he took a loaf, gave thanks, broke it, and gave it to them, saying: “This means my body which is to be given in YOUR behalf. Keep doing this in remembrance of me.” 20 Also, the cup in the same way after they had the evening meal, he saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in YOUR behalf.
21 “But, look! the hand of my betrayer is with me at the table. 22 Because the Son of man is going his way according to what is marked out; all the same, woe to that man through whom he is betrayed!” 23 So they started to discuss among themselves the question of which of them would really be the one that was about to do this.
John chapter 13
21 After saying these things, Jesus became troubled in spirit, and he bore witness and said: “Most truly I say to YOU , One of YOU will betray me.” 22 The disciples began to look at one another, being at a loss as to which one he was saying [it] about. 23 There was reclining in front of Jesus’ bosom one of his disciples, and Jesus loved him. 24 Therefore Simon Peter nodded to this one and said to him: “Tell who it is about whom he is saying [it].” 25 So the latter leaned back upon the breast of Jesus and said to him: “Lord, who is it?” 26Therefore Jesus answered: “It is that one to whom I shall give the morsel that I dip.” And so, having dipped the morsel, he took and gave it to Judas, the son of Simon Is·car´i·ot. 27And after the morsel then Satan entered into the latter. Jesus, therefore, said to him: “What you are doing get done more quickly.” 28 However, none of those reclining at the table knew for what purpose he said this to him. 29 Some, in fact, were imagining, since Judas was holding the money box, that Jesus was telling him: “Buy what things we need for the festival,” or that he should give something to the poor. 30 Therefore, after he received the morsel, he went out immediately. And it was night.
Matthew's account and Mark's account are very similar, which is probably because there were copied from the same source material. In any event neither mention anything about Judas leaving either before, during or after the meal...singular meal, as we will discuss in a bit.
John's account is the only one that records that Judas left. But John's account does not record the eating of the bread and drinking of the wine as representing Christ's body, so there is nothing there to show Judas leaving before Jesus offered the bread and wine.
Luke's account not only doesn't record the departure of Judas, it actually places him there during the new procedure.
The WT argues (among others) that Luke may not have been written in chronological order. But that argument doesn't hold up for WT apologists. Is the Bible the inerrent Word of God or isn't it? Is the Bible the final authority on doctrine? These are claims made by the WT/JWs. You can't have it both ways. You can't claim to believe the Bible as final say and being inerrent and then say, "oh well, that section...it's not quite right. This is the way it happened, we think..."
Another WT teaching is that the Memorial meal is a separate and distinct meal put in place after the Passover (Seder) meal is finished. But again, that's not what the Bible says. The accounts consistently record the event happening as they were eating whatever meal, assuming it was the Passover or Seder meal for this argument. "As they continued eating..." That means they were still in one of the courses of the meal. This special meal isn't a meat and two veggies with a glass of wine, but was several courses with four servings of wine. There is no mention of Jesus instituting this new special meal. It was during some point in the meal already in progress that Jesus carried out this new wrinkle.
Of course, all of this doesn't take into account that there are other discrepencies among the accounts themselves as to when the meal actually took place and that some parts of the accounts may not be authentic.
But just a quick read of the Gospels shows that the WT teaching of the Last Supper is twisted from scripture. And it has to be in order to make their Memorial as important as they claim it is. For only the remnant of Christ's brothers, the 144,000 are allowed to partake. If it was obvious that Judas partook, it robs some, if not all, the significance of the event and the importance of the vow of those who do partake. For if Jesus knew that Judas was his betrayer and still allowed him to stay during this event, then it's not a new institution being set in place for just those in the new covenant, it's just another parable and illustration used to try to teach his followers something. Rob the event of the importance of the occasion and it loses it's place today as a special and significant occasion that has to be observed, thus stripping the WT of some of its credibility as spokesmen for this special group of people.
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144000 Literal or Figurative?
by why144000 inthe speaker at the memorial tonight stated straight up that the 144,000 is a literal number as we will stop celebrating the memorial when jesus 'arrives' and takes the few remnant with him.
how can the society change the 144,000 to figurative without blowing themselves out of the water?.
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undercover
How can they change without blowing themselves out of the water?
lets take this slow...
it's...a... C. U. L. T.
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A point which virtually every JW will miss in this week's book study
by sir82 infrom this week's book study, the "draw close to jehovah" book, chapter 5:.
biologists have identified well over a million species of living things on earth; yet, opinions vary as to whether there may be as many as 10 million, 30 million, or more.. .
wow!
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undercover
Fundamentalists (JWs included) deny any form of evolution, but accept the Biblical story of Noah and his ark of animals as historical fact.
To accept that the limited number of 'kinds' of animals on the ark adapted and changed in just over 4000 years to become over the millions of species today, is to accept an exponentially faster rate of evolution that scientists have never suggested, nor is there any evidence to support.
The irony of it would be funny, if so many people in positions of education, power and authority were not making policies, laws and education standards based on their ignorance and stubborness in not accepting scientific facts.