now in my 40's i went to my first and most probably last rock concert last night.
i took the wife and kids (if you can still call them that with the youngest taller than me) to see the "motor city madman....ted nugent.
i guess that i am just not the rock and roll type.
I've seen Ted Nugent in concert and met him at an archery show. He certainly has opinions doesn't he and isn't afraid of being politically incorrect.
That's why I've always liked him. Even respect him. Don't always agree, but he always makes a case for his point of view and is very intelligent and well studied on the subjects that he is willing to be considered PI about.
jehovas' witnesses are an interesting group.
they enjoy the freedoms and liberties that they receive by living in the united states, but at the same time they refuse to partake in voting, national celebrations and have basically created their own nation within a nation.
i find it hypocritical for them to act in this manner and believe that they should gather from around the world and all go and live together on some island.
What though, of a religion that does NOT approve of those freedoms among it's people? There is NO freedom of though, speech within the org; I know, I am still in it, though not by much. If I said what I thought, I would be df'd in an instant.
Can we open this idea and discuss it?
Should a religion that denies it's members the freedoms inherent in the US be allowed to exist?
Good points. But if you ban one religion because of it's non-political views, then it would open up the government to ban religions that are decidely un-American. Are muslims un-American? Or just the radical muslims? Who decides? And here's a scary thought. Ban one religion and then another follows. Then another. Always a new excuse by the government. And then guess what. Babylon the Great has fallen. The world's governments have turned on the great harlot and devoured her. Where have we heard that before?
The Society seems to have lightened up on the voting issue though. I don't remember which WT is was, but it seemed to infer that voting was a conscience decision. Is this because of new light, or because they don't want trouble from the governments?
I'm not defending the WTS, I'm coming to grips myself with all my years of being duped, but I don't want to over-react and become one who hates them so bad that I lose sight of reason and fairness.
i was just reading a post about the wts possibly downsizing and someone mentioned a 1985 change in baptism vows.
i apologize, i don't remember who it was.
85 is about when i started my meltdown about the witnesses so i don't remember much from then.
Does that mean for all those that were baptized before 1985 could say they couldnt get disfellowshiped because in their opinion they are still doing the will of Jehovah through his holy spirit.???It was only after 1985 that they changed the "clause" to mention the organisation??
Good question. Another one is this; Does everybody that was baptized before 85 need to be re-baptized? Technically they are not part of the organization. They are still individually spirit-directed and not directed by the "spirit directed organization". Hey, it's nit-picky, but then again, the org nit-picks everything else so why not this?
now in my 40's i went to my first and most probably last rock concert last night.
i took the wife and kids (if you can still call them that with the youngest taller than me) to see the "motor city madman....ted nugent.
i guess that i am just not the rock and roll type.
I remember my first rock concert. Genesis. They seemed harmless enough. Great show, but about half way into it, Phil Collins does this intro thing into "House by the Sea"(I think thats the name). If I remember right, the song is about a haunted house. Collins has all the lights turned off except for a flashlight he shined up into his face and he started this seance(sic) kinda thing. He wanted to call the spirits into the coliseum by having everybody raise their arms and go "wooooo" or some type nonsense. I nearly freaked. I thought we were gonna get demonized for sure. Looking back on it, it really was silly how I reacted. But it didn't stop me from concerts though. I have lost count of the shows I have seen, in coliseums, arenas and nightclubs. The nightclub shows are usually the best, unless it's somebody like U2.
there were several different careers that the wts did not aprove of.
such as a being a cop, for having a gun.
couldn't be a martial arts instructor.. maybe it was a well paying career.. did you have a job that was not approved of?
Working for tobacco companies is out. Just ask brothers who worked for Phillip-Morris and R J Reynolds for years and then in the 70s they had to give up those careers. I know some that never recovered. The tobacco companies paid well back in their day. Most of the brothers were factory workers who were making good money, but when they quit they were unexperienced or uneducated enough that they could never find a job that paid equally well.
I remember one brother was hired as an independant contractor to clear the land for a new tobacco plant. That was OK though. The elders were invited to go out to get free firewood off the land that would soon be producing cigarettes.
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not my usual post - but can any of you reference any material for me that highlights 597 bce a relevant date, rather than 607 bce.. an old friend phoned this morning (who is a jw still) and wanted to know about alternate chronology, aside from what the wts teach.. any info' appreciated !.
cheers
there is the reckonong for the time when the Jews were released by the decree of Cyrus in 537 which thus fulfilled seventy years which must have began in 607. Obviously there is evidence for these historic events as these constitute biblical history.
Where is this evidence? It's not obvious to me. I'm sorry but I don't have a degree in religion. I'm not that smart. Lay it all out for me.
for those who have been out of touch for more than a few years, a s.a.d.
is the special assembly day.
i attended the sad in brooklyn this weekend and thought you might enjoy some of the highlights.. the morning began with two "telling" illustrations.
They did treat us like immature, child-like drones. No wonder. We couldn't speak for ourselves, and we couldn't make our own choices about even simple things, like how to wear our clothing, or what movies to see, or what books to read.They controlled us, and they still control a lot of people. This is the cult aspect of the religion. Yet, some people like to be collared and quartered, and held back, because they don't have to "do" anything other than what someone else tells them to do.
The last CO that came through while I was still attending mtgs was a condescending, mealy-mouthed jerk. He pretended to be o-so-nice but in fact was anything but. Each visit made me dislike him more than the last. He stood over us and acted so high and mighty. We were beneath him in everything. Even the area of the country we lived in was inferior to where he grew up. The most telling thing he said that showed his attitude was this, "If you aren't doing everything possible in Jehovah's service, if you aren't giving whole-souled and making sacrifices, real sacrifices, putting yourselves out, then why bother?". I may not have the exact wording right but it's pretty close. I remember him standing with that smirk on his face as if it happened yesterday saying with dramatic pause, "....then why bother?". I said to myself, "He's right. Why bother?" If what I'm doing isn't good enough, then the heck with it anyway. I've killed myself all these years and this is the encouragement I get? Sometime later, I started doing research and just like most others, had doubts in both directions, "they're wrong" or "what if I'm wrong". It's getting better and I guess I really should thank that CO cause he's the one that got me thinking to begin with.
I remember being called in the back room more than once for grooming. Tie is too loud. Hair is too long. Trim your mustache. Cowboy boots are not allowed for service.
Close friend got busted for watching R-rated movies. A so called "friend" in the cong. saw em in his house and went running to the elders. As long as he watched em he couldn't be an MS. They reviewed with him every so often to make suer he was complying. Another close friend who is MS and whos father is an elder watch em all the time. Even go to theater to see em. No one questions them.
Always hid books, magazines and movies when cleaning person came to house cause she was JW and didn't want her to go running to tell on me.
Is this anyway for a grown person to have to live? Kinda like living under the Taliban.
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not my usual post - but can any of you reference any material for me that highlights 597 bce a relevant date, rather than 607 bce.. an old friend phoned this morning (who is a jw still) and wanted to know about alternate chronology, aside from what the wts teach.. any info' appreciated !.
cheers
Scholar says:
The majority of scholars prefer the dates 586 or 587 for this event. The Society has calculated that according to the biblical record, the date should be fixed at 607 BCE. This calcuable date is in accordance with some of the the secular evidence and an exegesis of the seventy years,What is some of this evidence? The only 607 "evidence" I have seen comes from the Society. Everything else I have seen secularly says otherwise. I would like to see "some of the secular evidence".
i'm getting that religious people realllly get on my nerves - no matter how "well meaning" they are.
i read in one of the posts some advice to the newly "ex'd" and i appreciated it, especially the point how other's may want to "save" you now that you've left your religion.. get this... i work with 2 born-agains and my boss is a mormon.
they've all made some comments about that "i shouldn't let this experience destroy my faith in jesus" (tolerable, assuming i believed in him) however, one co-worker has a new zeal for her born-again faith and has raised many topics with me because she respects my opinion.
All this reminds me of back when I was a Jehover Witnit and we had a pioneer sister and a brother to get into two separate car accidents the same weekend. The brother was a good brother and worked hard to support his wife and kids, but he didn't survive the accident. I remember how all the brothers and sisters at the hall commented on how Jehover's spirit was with the pioneer sister, how valueble she was to the borg because she was a pioneer. It always pissed me off royally because I felt, was this poor brother less valued because he wasn't a pioneer. I even commented about it to my brother who was a elder. He said I had a bad attitude. That wasn't anything new! They make me sick too.
I remember shortly after 9/11 last year getting an email from someone who supposedly had contacts at Bethel. An experience was read to the Bethelites(according to this email) about how a young brother had for years been trying to get employment at some company in NY. He had finally been offered the job but he would have to start the same week he was scheduled to go to MS school. He was in a quandry. Should he miss the school and take this job, which would in the long run allow him to better provide for his family or should he turn down the job and go to the MS school? After much prayerful consideration he decided to turn down the job and go to the MS school. How blessed he was by this decision. His first day on the new job would have been 9/10/01 and the company's office was in the World Trade Center.
I was instantly incensed. What about the 13 or so other brothers who did lose their lives? Were they not blessed? Were they not good JWs? Did they deserve to die? There was a brother who was a firefighter. He ran into the building because it was his job to help save people. He died. Should he prayerfully not have taken this job and sought some safer line of work? Just because this guy was lucky, yes, lucky, being blessed had nothing to do with it, his experience is used to try to manipulate JWs into being obedient little dubs. This experience, if true, upsets me everytime I think about. This is shameless manipulation of someones fate into trying to control peoples lives.
jehovas' witnesses are an interesting group.
they enjoy the freedoms and liberties that they receive by living in the united states, but at the same time they refuse to partake in voting, national celebrations and have basically created their own nation within a nation.
i find it hypocritical for them to act in this manner and believe that they should gather from around the world and all go and live together on some island.
While the problems about the religion that you mention are true, to deny them the liberties that all other groups in this country enjoy is going a little far. I think that most of the posts are tongue in cheek about banishing them to an island or whatever but sometimes we can caught up in a prejudice that isn't fair, legal or christian. The United States of America is a free country after all. Freedom of religion is one of the things that the founding fathers made sure was available to all. No one says you have to vote. No one says you have to be politcally involved. They choose to remain neutral in these affairs, so be it. No harm done. There are worse groups to worry about. It worries me a little when so many jump on a bandwagon about shipping a group of people out of a country, whether JWs, blacks, jews or any other group that doesn't fit in with some persons "idea" of being a true American.
Again, if all these earlier posts were meant to be humorous, then I am overreacting and I apologize, but I just wanted to voice an opinion on the side of freedom.
