Posts by undercover

12

A slave is obedient even to a cruel master?...

by cyber-sista in

just recently sister x from the kh where i recently attended had another meeting with the elders there to try and help she and brother x with their abusive marital relationship.

they are constantly meeting with the elders and have done so for many years over this and everything other decision they need to make in their lives.

they are very "elder dependent" but their lives never seem to improve and in fact it just seems to go from bad to worse.

undercover

This is a dysfunctional relationship and logic and reason are of no avail, at least not from amateurs and well wishers. Professional intervention by a trained psychologist is their only hope. Just talking scripture isn't going to do it. They need to be reached on an emotional level, which requires a professional road map.

Good point. Even if the elders are merciful, caring men, they are not trained to handle the issues that come with these type relationships. Best friends can be caring and merciful, but still not be able to help. What makes an untrained elder think he can help them solve their problems by reading some scriptures?

Then there's the uncaring, arrogant elders who make matters worse by laying blame on the abused wife or accusing one or both of not living up to Bible principles and that's why they have problems. For an elder to use the scripture about be obedient to a cruel master when speaking to an abused wife is unexcusable. If she decides to stay with an abusive husband based partly on what that elder told her, he would have to share in the guilt of any injury or death incurred later.

I was never an elder, but I have always maintained this attitude about abusive husbands: If he ever physically acosts you, it's time to leave. You are no longer safe, he no longer is in control of himself. I know that if I was an elder and uttered those words that I probably wouldn't have been an elder for very long.

8

Judas never received his Memorial invitation

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

i don't have the book with me here at hand, but the society says that judas was never present at the lord's evening meal.

20(24) now when evening came, jesus was reclining at the table with the twelve disciples.

he said to him, "lord, do you wash my feet?

undercover

The WTS paints that evening as having two distinct meals. First they ate the Passover meal. Then later (after Judas left) Jesus inaugurated the new and improved meal, the Lord's Evening Meal.

But when I read the accounts, I do not see two distinct events. I see one meal and while eating this meal, Jesus uses the bread and wine to represent his body and blood. There's no proof that Judas left before the bread and wine sampling, in fact, Luke says he was there. The other Gospels are a little more vague but they say things like, "...while eating..." or "...during the meal...".

The WTS is grasping at straws trying to bolster their belief that only the "anointed" can partake of the bread and wine. If Judas was present at the partaking of the bread and wine, it shoots that belief and practice down in flames.

1

Wizard of Id

by undercover in

i've never been successful in attaching pictures here, but anyway, this link takes you to yesterday's wizard of id comic.

maybe we can get our dub friends to do the same thing:.

http://www.comics.com/creators/wizardofid/archive/wizardofid-20040405.html.

undercover

I've never been successful in attaching pictures here, but anyway, this link takes you to yesterday's Wizard of Id comic. Maybe we can get our dub friends to do the same thing:

http://www.comics.com/creators/wizardofid/archive/wizardofid-20040405.html

32

Hi and a question

by irishayes in

jw
friends

i have been lurking for a few days and wanted to ask a question.

i stumbled on this website because i have an aquaintance who is a jw and i wanted to learn more about this religion.. first off, let me say that i am a christian.. my question is this: in reading a lot of posts, i see that many of you have left the religion because you believe the wbts has not been truthful in their interpretation of scriptures and because of their incorrect prophecies.

but it seems many of you still believe that they were correct in their belief that the trinity is totally a wrong teaching.

undercover

Welcome, Irish

You are correct, many that have left the JWs still do not accept the trinity, but some do. I'm sure they'll pop in sooner or later. You'll find all kinds of viewpoints from people who USED to be JWs. As a JW, they were discouraged and indoctrinated to not think for themselves or research independant of the WTS publications. Once we we woke up from the deception, we have all researched at various degrees and have come up with as many ideas as there are X-JWs. I for one, am of the opinion that the Bible is not inspired and that all organized religion is just man's way of controlling other men. I don't think one needs a religion to be acceptable to God, if one exists. I have not researched the trinity enough to have a real opinoin on it. But stick around, I'm sure this could strike up a good trinity debate.

20

does anyone know the jehovahs witness view on film Passion of the christ

by farmer in

jw
friends

???

?

undercover

Instead of throwing away your money on that movie, why not read Christ's story it in the bible .... This is what each and everyone of you should do.."

Sounds to me like he might be giving his own opinion there. Going beyond what's written and all that. I guess we shouldn't watch the Ten Commanments this coming weekend either.(isn't it shown every Easter?).

I figured the JWs would discourage members from seeing it based on the violence and the rating, but I've always said that if they made movies out of many of the Bible stories they would have to be rated R. So I can't see that as much of an excuse. A grown, mature indivudual should be able to make decisions for themselves without having to worry wether it upsets their clergy.

6

Noah - Preacher of Righteousness?

by undercover in

maybe i just don't remember my dub days correctly, but i swear that i remember that jws taught that noah preached to the people of his time of the coming destruction.

he preached and then he built the ark and he and his family were saved.. i just read the account of noah in geneis.

it doesn't mention him preaching, just building, collecting animals and floating in a box.. matthew 24:39 quotes jesus as saying that the day and hour that nobody knows will be the same as noah's day, when the people of that day were eating and drinking and were not aware of what was going to happen.. hebrews 11:7 speaks of noah being righteous and by his following god's orders to build the ark, condemend man to destruction.. where do you get preacher of righteousness from these scriptures?

undercover

Thanks guys, for those references.

So based on that one scripture in 2 Peter, the JWs are able to justify and stylize their work based on Noah and his preaching in the end of that time.

Yet, here is what Jesus said:

"As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man." (Matt 24:37-39 NIV)

As I said earlier, Noah must not have done a very good job in that no one knew the flood was coming. Maybe Noah spent too much time taking breaks instead of knocking on huts. Wouldn't this make him bloodguilty? Isn't that what JWs are told if they don't preach zealously, using every available means to reach people? Or maybe Jesus was right. No one knows the end time, including anyone who thinks they do. So knocking on doors and telling people the end is near when we don't know is contrary to what Jesus said.

Or, maybe, just maybe, the Bible is not an inspired book from God after all. It's just a collection of myths and stories, handed down, forgotten and remembered, rewritten, changed and outright made up.

6

Noah - Preacher of Righteousness?

by undercover in

maybe i just don't remember my dub days correctly, but i swear that i remember that jws taught that noah preached to the people of his time of the coming destruction.

he preached and then he built the ark and he and his family were saved.. i just read the account of noah in geneis.

it doesn't mention him preaching, just building, collecting animals and floating in a box.. matthew 24:39 quotes jesus as saying that the day and hour that nobody knows will be the same as noah's day, when the people of that day were eating and drinking and were not aware of what was going to happen.. hebrews 11:7 speaks of noah being righteous and by his following god's orders to build the ark, condemend man to destruction.. where do you get preacher of righteousness from these scriptures?

undercover

Maybe I just don't remember my dub days correctly, but I swear that I remember that JWs taught that Noah preached to the people of his time of the coming destruction. He preached and then he built the ark and he and his family were saved.

I just read the account of Noah in Geneis. It doesn't mention him preaching, just building, collecting animals and floating in a box.

Matthew 24:39 quotes Jesus as saying that the day and hour that nobody knows will be the same as Noah's day, when the people of that day were eating and drinking and were not aware of what was going to happen.

Hebrews 11:7 speaks of Noah being righteous and by his following God's orders to build the ark, condemend man to destruction.

Where do you get preacher of righteousness from these scriptures? Is there something that I forgot that speaks of him preaching? And if he did, he didn't do a very good job, because Jesus said the people were unaware of what was about to befall them.

Does anyone else remember Noah being used as an example to us today to keep preaching? Or was I dreaming?

14

A time paradox with the Faithful and Discreet Slave

by gods vigilante in

continuing in my endeavor to find the truth i found something quite interesting about the "faithful and discreet slave".

according to the society they say that the faithful and discreet slave mentioned in matt.

24 : 45 refers to the anointed ones who have been appointed by their master over his belongings.

undercover

I'm not real up on my indoctrination memory these days, but it seems like that the dubs like to say that Jesus returned in 1914, examined all the worlds religions and in 1919 granted The Bible Students(later JWs) his stamp of approval.

But, at the same time CT Russell was the slave and then the early brotherhood was the slave as a collective. In fact, the WTS has said the the FDS class has existed in one form or another since the first century. Several problems with this, like, who was the slave in the 2nd to 17th centuries? How did CT Russell become the slave if he rejected organized religion of that day? And, as was pointed out in this thread, how can the slave exist before 1914 if it wasn't appointed until after Jesus arrival?

47

HOW ABOUT MENTIONING JESUS AT THE MEMORIAL!

by Mary in

jw
friends

well i went last night...........did anyone else notice how the talk focused almost exclusively on the 144,000???

jesus was barely mentioned.

the first couple of minutes talked about when the israelites left egypt and the passover was instituted.

undercover

Mary,

You paid better attention than I did. And you must have been at the same memorial I went to, because it sounded just as you said. Reflecting on it now, you're correct, it was a talk on mostly the 144,000. I figured that they were just trying to make sure no one, who wasn't supposed to, did try to partake.

It's sad that at the one "celebration" commanded by Jesus that the JWs follow, they spend more time on their "anointed" class and how special they are over everyone else and worry about how many partake.

91

Back from the Memorial......Special Announcement at the end....

by ScoobySnax in

jw
friends

the special announcement read at the end was an invite for any interested ones (tm) to ask if they wanted a bible study.....and that a special meeting will be held next sunday in all the congregations worldwide, and an invite was given for all to attend.

i loved going and was good to see all the brothers and sisters again, the po who gave the talk made a bee line for me straight after the closing prayer, straight off the platform (i had to stand as there were no seats) and asked to speak to me, and directed me to the back of the hall, i thought here we go......jc convening shortly......but no he said the wt society in london had contacted him as i'd wrote them asking for the magazines, and he would be happy to drop by and had done, but never found me at home.

so we arranged a date for him to call next week.. the hall was packed, and from my standing point i had plenty of opportunity to have a scan about, despite being horrified that their were brothers there who were betting looking than even me ( in my newly bought outfit!

undercover

My experience of going to the memorial:

People were glad to see me and came up and chit-chated about various things. I saw only a couple of people avert their eyes when I made eye contact with them. Most were genuinely glad to see me.

The talk itself was well-done, though it was typical JW-speak and glossed over some things that could easily be taken issue with(such as only eleven apostles were present when the bread and wine were passed)

No special announcements, just the announcement about the "special" talk later in the month. Something you do every year is no longer special, but annual.

Regarding Scoob's impression of how he was treated at the hall: If all the meetings were as pleasant as the memorial, then going to the hall wouldn't be such an issue. But think about it. If we decide to attend meetings, if only on Sunday, sooner or later the elders and others will start pressuring us to "do more". We'll be asked to "reach out". I don't like the term "love bomb", but unfortunately, that's what happens at the memorial if we go, we get love-bombed. But, keep up the meeting attendance and then the pressure to be assimilated becomes greater and greater. I could go to the hall on Sundays(if nothing else is planned) just to socialize without any problem. That's nothing different than most other churches. But JWs just don't want your presence at a meeting once in a while. They want your dedication to their cause. They want your time to further their cause. They want your soul.

Try it for a while. Go to the hall on Sundays. Enjoy the fellowship. See how long before they insist on more meeting attendance. Before they insist on going in service. Before they insist on joining the "school". Before they insist you reach out for more "privileges". As long as you toe the line, things will be great. As soon as you resist, you'll see the good times end. You'll be "marked". Maybe even unofficially shunned by the more zealous types.

But, if want to return, then you should. Following your heart is not so bad as long as the mind is not completely ignored. If your heart wants to go back and your mind finds no reasaon not to, then by all means, do it. But if ever your mind should raise a red flag, please do not ignore it. Find out why your mind is concerned and make decisions based on both mind and heart.