hmm,.
while searching the internet today i found this websit.
<a> http://www.prime.org/chalfant/rings.html.
Hmm,
While searching the internet today I found this websit
<A> http://www.prime.org/chalfant/Rings.html
Seems to indicate that wedding rings are pagan in origin.?? How can that be, after all don't JW's use wedding rings??
If I were to ask my JW friend to explain to me why they wear wedding rings what would be the answer??
Thanks for the help everyone...
i'm new here, and i want to make it clear upfront that i am not, nor have i ever been a jw.
in fact, until recently i didn't know much about jw's.
but i do have a question that i hope both jw's and ex-jw's will try and answer for me... about 10 months ago, i hired a 20 year old to work for me.. i hired him because he seemed very loyal, ethical, sincere, hardworking and honest.
Thanks for the comments LDH...
Ahhh, that explains the real concern he had for 'committment' and responsibility... He was really upset over that stuff...
As for the unconditional love, I've already told him many times (each time I do he tells me he doesn't understand that kind of love) that no matter what he chooses to do, no matter if he sin's or doesn't sin, I will always consider him my friend, and will always love him and help him in any way I can..
He really seems to want to understand that, but because of the fact that he doesn't is why I came to the conclusion that JW's don't really understand unconditional anything!!!!
And yes, I'll be sure to bring up all the marriage responsibilites.. He, after all, is well aware of the fact that I am reading apostate material.. (He even held the Crisis of Conscience book in his hand.. Of course, he looked initially like he was concerned that his hand was going to set fire <G>)...
Again, thank you for any and all comments you can give me on the subject... And I have every plan of being here for him no matter what his decisions...!!!!
i am an old man.. this is a topic i have been comtemplating for some time as i continue in this transitional time of my life, reminiscing about my 50+ years with what some of you call the "borg", but i simply refer to as jehovah's witnesses.. good people i have known who loved god, but did not fit into the organizational scheme of things is the topic.
there will be at least three parts a la amazing.
this topic will sink out of sight like a rock, but it is therapeutic to write it and the contemplation brings a smile to my face.. my first subject is b.w.. b.w.
Wow!
Now that's impressive to say the least...
I'm sure he made it to heaven.. Wonder how the organization harmonizes a non witness who is annointed <ROFL>...
i'm new here, and i want to make it clear upfront that i am not, nor have i ever been a jw.
in fact, until recently i didn't know much about jw's.
but i do have a question that i hope both jw's and ex-jw's will try and answer for me... about 10 months ago, i hired a 20 year old to work for me.. i hired him because he seemed very loyal, ethical, sincere, hardworking and honest.
Thanks for the comments Six..!!!
I still haven't decided what to do, how to do it, and if he'll even listen if I do decide to really show him the stuff... But, the more I read, the more I realize that I may have already planted the seeds of dougbth in his mind, and if I don't finish it now, it will eventually come to a point in the future anyway.. And I agree with you, if it's an eventual outcome at this point, I think it would be better for him earlier than later in life..
Plus, if it is an eventuallity, and he does decide to get married now, that will make it even harder for him down the road!!!
Thanks again for the comments!!!!
i'm new here, and i want to make it clear upfront that i am not, nor have i ever been a jw.
in fact, until recently i didn't know much about jw's.
but i do have a question that i hope both jw's and ex-jw's will try and answer for me... about 10 months ago, i hired a 20 year old to work for me.. i hired him because he seemed very loyal, ethical, sincere, hardworking and honest.
Hi Zev,
Yes I'm a Star Trek fan, and have often in private referred to the organization as the borg..
You will be assimulated, resistance is futile!!!
Thanks for the humor!!!
Hang in there, and above all else, remember, you now have true freedom!!! Sometimes it's painfull to make decisions on your own, but I believe in the end, I'd rather make a wrong decision myself than have someone else do it for me..!!! Congratulations on your new found freedom, and good luck with your 'deprogramming' efforts..!!!
i'm new here, and i want to make it clear upfront that i am not, nor have i ever been a jw.
in fact, until recently i didn't know much about jw's.
but i do have a question that i hope both jw's and ex-jw's will try and answer for me... about 10 months ago, i hired a 20 year old to work for me.. i hired him because he seemed very loyal, ethical, sincere, hardworking and honest.
Hi XJWBILL (and everyone else),
Thanks for all the comments..
For what it's worth, I'm a 33 yr old male.
I'm actually quite content with letting my friend continue on in his life, my crisis of conscience is over wether or not he can really be happy doing so.
I have worried about suicide with him, but that really is me.. We even talked about that, and he told me I was worrying about nothing. He said he would never do that.
I too have thought about the real motives as to why I want to help show him the truth, and why I'm continuing to go along with him to slowly let him find the truth without me confronting him directly (many books I've read say DO NOT DO THAT!!!).
Everytime I try to evaluate my own motives, a few things pop up. I can say with certainty that jealousy of the organization is not the proper word, nor the feeling. I have a severe personal problem with anyone trying to run my life, as I live my life true to my own conscience, and always have... Because of my personal feelings towards others running my life, I am wondering if somehow my personal beliefs that you can never be truly happy until you run your own life is spilling over into my relationship with him.
I also believe that religion exists to bring people together, and the JW take on that is insulting to me personally at best. So, I have wondered if that is a part of my motive.. Am I so infuriated that I feel I must show him the truth at all cost.
The fact that he has started to date has alot to do with me. He told me a while back that he met a girl but was pretty much afraid to start dating. Without me understanding that there was a 'procedure' to dating, I told him to go for it.. He looked very lonely (I've always thought he was unhappy, and lonely) but at least now he may find someone to spend his life with, if he chooses to do so. He called me wanting to talk to me and look for words of encouragement a week ago, because both families were sitting down for a 'talk' last saturday night.. I have no idea what actually transpired, but I can tell you that it greatly upset him.. As he said, he's normally a very private person (He is) but when he decided to officially start dating that privacy goes somewhat out the window. He didn't like that, and called me to calm him down so he could face 'the talk'.. Like I said, the end result of the talk (as he told me) was that he now knows what they can and cannot do, and there are 6 levels of dating.. He is on level 1, and although the two families are treating this as a done deal (I assume he means marriage) his comments were to me nothing is a done deal yet, I want to slow down, I have alot that I want to do before I settle down.
He has asked me questions recently like, "Do you think I'm brainwashed?". I replied I didn't think he was brainwashed, but that I could not comprehend why he blindly follows an organizaiton that he himself admits has made many mistakes. I wanted him to try and show me how he could think that way.
In some ways I believe that he is asking me to show him the truth, but I do not know. In other ways, he seems he is trying to actually become a better witness... I guess I'm confused as to what he wants me to do, and just as confused as to what I should do..
Like I said to him, it's not about me, it's about you and your happiness. So, if alot of ex-jw's tell me that while they were jw's (until they started questioning the religion) that they were happy, I will probably let him be, and just pray that he is actually happy. Because I know from all the reading and research I've done that even if I can show him he doesn't have the truth, the end result of that process is going to be devestating to him, no matter what his choice is in the long run.. And although I'll be here to help him in any way I can, that process may do more damage than good.
I am impressed that all of you have said that after your DF or DA that you feel better. But I've read some gut-wrenching stories here and elsewhere of what happens when a JW leaves, either by choice or by a judicial action.
So, therein lies my dilemna, and I'm looking for any and all input on this subject (Where is Fred Hall on this matter?). I thank all of you for taking the time to read and reply to me, and I will certainly keep you posted on what happens next...
Thanks again for all of your time and comments.. Please keep them coming!!!!
hello again...now that i am officially a horrible, unrepentant sinner (in the eyes of a polyester slack wearing, mini van driving, anal retentive man whore), i have a question (actually several, but i will start with one!
) brace yourselves: it is about 1975!.
where in the wt was the "prophecy" made?
Hey Mantis,
My favorite quote from the organization on this subject is found in the May, 1974 Kingdom Ministry, page 3: (Courtesy of Ray Franz' book Crisis of Conscience)
"Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end. -- 1 John 2:17."
REMEMBER: Take one day at a time.. I've never been a JW, so I cannot even begin to say I understand what you are going through, but when all else fails, remember, you are finally FREE!!!!!
Good luck, my prayers are with you....
i'm new here, and i want to make it clear upfront that i am not, nor have i ever been a jw.
in fact, until recently i didn't know much about jw's.
but i do have a question that i hope both jw's and ex-jw's will try and answer for me... about 10 months ago, i hired a 20 year old to work for me.. i hired him because he seemed very loyal, ethical, sincere, hardworking and honest.
Hi Mantis,
I was very moved by your email. Thank you for the reply.
More importantly, DON'T DO ANYTHING TO YOURSELF.. I can tell by your email that you are a fine, loving person who unfortunatly was deceived by an organization that you thought was showing you the way. There is no sin on your part. The organization is the problem, not you. You have done NOTHING wrong. If you want a friend to talk to, I have a good shoulder!!! .. I'd certainly love to talk to you.. As I said in my email, my personal life phylosophy is love and friendship.. There's always room for more friends... !!!!!
Also, I suggest you give a call to
1-800-WHY-1914..
It's a hotline set up to help JW's who are questioning or leaving the organization.. Give Marylin a call.. I'm not affiliated with it in any way, of course, but I did call them and spoke with Marylin back in December when all this started happening, so I could find out how best I could help my friend, if indeed he needed help.. I thought at one point that he was thinking of suicide himself.
I hope to hear from you soon, and above all, remember, don't give the organization the pleasure of you doing any harm to yourself in any way.. You are finally free from their bondage!!! You have the last laugh, not them!
My prayers are with you....
....superrrrr elderrrrr!.
heeeere i am to save the daaaaayyyyyyyy!!!!
and maybeee ruin a few liiiiives!.
Fred,
You appear to be an active witness.. I noticed by your wonderful command of the english language, and your Christian demeanor.
You truly are giving Jehovah and yourself a good name..
Keep up the good work.. You're showing me the way!!!!
i'm new here, and i want to make it clear upfront that i am not, nor have i ever been a jw.
in fact, until recently i didn't know much about jw's.
but i do have a question that i hope both jw's and ex-jw's will try and answer for me... about 10 months ago, i hired a 20 year old to work for me.. i hired him because he seemed very loyal, ethical, sincere, hardworking and honest.
Hi Everyone,
I'm new here, and I want to make it clear upfront that I am not, nor have I ever been a JW. In fact, until recently I didn't know much about JW's. But I do have a question that I hope both JW's and ex-JW's will try and answer for me..
About 10 months ago, I hired a 20 year old to work for me.. I hired him because he seemed very loyal, ethical, sincere, hardworking and honest. All qualities that I admire greatly.
We became friends, spending time together outside of work. About 6 months ago, he came to me one day and told me that he was a JW, and that he had strayed from his religion. He could not be a friend to me, not because I was a bad person or anything, in fact he admired many of my qualities, but he said that I didn't serve Jehovah, and therefor we couldn't be friends.
I've never heard of anything like that in my life before.. It was clear that we were already good friends, and now he's telling me because of religion that we couldn't be friends.. It hurt, infuriated me, and insulted me because I have always believed in god, although not a member of any religion, and have always believed that god wants us to love one another, and he brings people together, he certainly doesn't seperate them.
Although he said he would like to stay and work for me, and he could be friendly, and even socialize with me occaisionally (about once every 6 months) we certainly could not be friends and socialize on a regular basis anymore. Because my personal life philospophy is based on love and friendship, I told him that although I certainly cared for him, and I certainly still considered him a friend no matter what he said, that it was probably best for both of us if he got another job. I even helped him get it, and I stayed in contact with him, telling him that my conscience certainly doesn't say to end a friendship. So, I visited him semi-monthly, helped him in any way I could, and told him I was kinda doing a reverse witnessing to him. I wasn't going to end anything, he had to tell me to stop coming over, calling him, etc.. Of course, he didn't..
Then I got to thinking, what if he indeed did have the "truth" as he called it. So, I asked him to start a bible study with me. Of course, I do independant research, and so while I was reading his stuff, I was buying books written by ex-witnesses (Thanks Ray Franz among others!) too.. I even told him I was doing so, and although he said he would prefer I didn't, he never even applied pressure for me to stop. I told him that if he has the truth, it should easily be able to answer any questions I can come up with, and will show the apostate's wrong. He agreed.
All the while, our friendship continued to grow.. He never really did end it.. We continued to email, phone and even visit each other on a regular basis, almost daily, certainly 2-3 times a week... Of course, he'd stop over and give some silly excuse to be here, like his computer wasn't working, and I was the ONLY person he could think of who had a computer with a working internet connection, even though I live about 20 minutes from his house, and 2 houses down from him is a witness friend of his with a computer and internet connection..
Soon I began to realize that he did not have the truth, and started feeling that he is a lost sole, and felt real pity for him.
So I started asking him questions that he could not answer, even showing him old Watchtower literature that he couldn't harmonize.
From all the books I've read, they all basically said that the witness is "programmed" to respond to normal bible questions, but they really don't have to think about the answers.. So, I began asking him questions about his organization, and it obviously bothered him.
In fact, I thought he was going to end the bible studies at one point, so I told him that if he walks out on me, that it is his fault the friendship ended, and that he and his organization do not have the truth, as truth is never afraid of any question.
Then a very interesting twist occured in the studies.. I told him that I had read that he was even discouraged from reading the bible chapter and verse without his bible aids. He told me that was not true, so I asked him to stop with the bible aids, and read the bible with me, chapter and verse, starting with Genesis, and going all the way through to Revelation. Although he certainly tried to talk me out of it, he ultimately agreed to it.
He told me that if I were to mention to anyone that we are reading the bible chapter and verse that they would probably look at me cross-eyed because this is unheard of, that he expects me to continue going to kingdom hall with him on occasion, and that the bible is the final word, and I should stop focusing on the organization, and we'll just read the bible (I agreed to stop asking organizational questions).. He then allowed me to use my own bible (The NIV version) and he is reading his NWT version.
About 2 weeks ago, he informed me that he has started dating a girl (witness of course).. In fact, he is an elder's son and a ministral servant, and the girl is also an elder's daughter from another congregation..
I know that he doesn't have the truth, but now I have a crisis of conscience.. I've always felt he hasn't been happy, even soon after he started working for me, you could just tell that he wasn't happy... Well, now I believe I know why, but since I've never been a JW I don't know if he indeed can be happy as a witness or not..
I certainly don't think he understands real love and friendship, since both are always conditional, and I don't believe love should ever be conditional, and friends certainly should be allowed to help each other in their most trying times, but in his religion, when the friend needs help the most (after he's decided to leave the organization, or committ a grievious sin in their eyes) none of his friends are allowed to talk to him.. I cannot comprehend how that can be love and friendship, but again, I'm not a JW, so I cannot say..
So, my crisis is do I just sit him down on our next bible study, and say, Look, I know stuff. Here it is, and show him what I know, or should I not do that?
A.) If I show him, and he can ignore it, I may cause him permanent doubghts, but he may stay a witness, in that case I've now caused him to not even fully believe he has the truth any longer, while still acting as a robot or slave to a fallible organization that claims to be god's appointed channel.
B.) If I show him, it may cause a major crisis in his mind, and maybe will lead him to do something horrible (Like suicide)
C.) If he indeed is dating, and does love this girl, maybe that is why I've always thought he wasn't happy, and that was the only reason.. In which case, he can be a happy witness for the rest of his life, and I shouldn't show him any thing.. Let him live his life believing he has the truth..
D.) If I show him, and he decides to leave, am I possibly causing more harm than good? After all, he'll have to give up his family (He was raised a witness, so all his family are witnesses) not to mention the stress of knowing he's lived a lie for 20 years..??
My conscience is really twisted, and I feel much sorrow and pity for my friend, but I don't know what to do. I want to free his sole, but then again, I don't even know if it really needs freeing, nor do I know what will happen when and if I show him the information I have, if he'll even listen to me..
Please, help me to understand the life of a witness so I can make an informed decision.. I don't even care if he decides never to speak to me again, I just want to do what's best for him, and I don't know what that is..
Any and all Witness's and ex-witnesses I'd love to hear your comments on the matter..
Thanks for any advice you can offer on the subjust
Just wannahelp....
