Posts by Leolaia

16

Another early legend about Jesus birth

by Leolaia in

the ascension of isaiah preserves what might be a cognate but independent tale about jesus' birth.

this book was initially pre-christian and was known to the author of hebrews (cf.

hebrews 11:37 = ascenis 5:2-15), but was heavily interpolated in the first and second century a.d. the first interpolation, 3:13-4:22, most likely dates to the end of the first century (as it was known to second-century writers in its literary form) but the second, the so-called vision of isaiah (11:2-22) is later, probably from the first half of the second century.

Leolaia

Steve....your question is pretty much the same one I was posing in my "Seeking Jesus" thread. And in the same post you quote, I also state what Jesus means to me:

for me, the real Jesus is the message of humility, love, and justice that he taught and he embodied this message with the very way he lived his life. Jesus' revolutionary message is that God is not isolated, distant from humanity, living in "third heaven" or the "Pleiades" or whatever, but that he can be in you and rule your heart by the way you live your life. That's what Jesus means to me, and that is the kind of kingdom I want to seek in my quest to be a better person and live a better, more charitable life.

It is this message, this really revolutionary message, that is lost completely by the WTS. I disagree with those who believe no such person as Jesus existed and that he was invented purely as a mystical religious concept. My exploration of the evidence convinces me that there really was this man who had a very real, powerful, and tangible message -- namely, about the Kingdom of God. And I do believe in God, and I am quite persuaded by Jesus' philosophy of having God dwell in our hearts. The problem with his message is that it is filtered through the traditions and writings of his followers who developed very different ideas of who Jesus was. So, I am still seeking, not sure if I know Jesus yet, but I like very much what I am finding.

And at the same time I do not reject entirely the more mystical, theological conceptions of Jesus in the different streams of Christianity. He may have been God as some Christians believed. Or he may have had a gnostic message, as others believed. I myself am more persuaded by the Jewish-Christian (i.e. Nazorean) conception of Jesus since that seems to be closest of the view of his original disciples. But I would rather embrace different contradictory conceptions of Jesus than reject possible truth. Maybe that's not faith, I am quite agnostic in many matters, as I freely admit, and I do well to study and discover how perhaps some traditions of Jesus are based on misunderstandings of things he said, but I do cherish and truly enjoy the wide spectrum of opinion.

207

How did all the animals fit on Noah's Ark?

by hooberus in

.

many skeptics assert that the bible must be wrong, because they claim that the ark could not possibly have carried all the different types of animals.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/docs/cen_v19n2_animals_ark.asp

Leolaia

No, but it sounds chees-alicious....

16

Another early legend about Jesus birth

by Leolaia in

the ascension of isaiah preserves what might be a cognate but independent tale about jesus' birth.

this book was initially pre-christian and was known to the author of hebrews (cf.

hebrews 11:37 = ascenis 5:2-15), but was heavily interpolated in the first and second century a.d. the first interpolation, 3:13-4:22, most likely dates to the end of the first century (as it was known to second-century writers in its literary form) but the second, the so-called vision of isaiah (11:2-22) is later, probably from the first half of the second century.

Leolaia

That's a very interesting understanding of the word "virgin" and the AscenIs text would seem to support that understanding quite distinctly. I vaguely recall another relevant text but it doesn't come to mind at the moment.

207

How did all the animals fit on Noah's Ark?

by hooberus in

.

many skeptics assert that the bible must be wrong, because they claim that the ark could not possibly have carried all the different types of animals.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/docs/cen_v19n2_animals_ark.asp

Leolaia

You're right, God did bring the animals to Noah, I guess that changes everything huh???

12

Killer God & His Body Count

by dh in

does anyone know the exact number of people recorded as being killed by god in the bible?

not those killed by old age or illness or the acts of genocide that aren't given a death toll figure (like the flood), i wondered what the body count was for those acts of genocie that do have a documented death toll, or kill figure (god sent an angel to kill 100,000 etc).. anyone any ideas?.

dh'

Leolaia

Take the quiz.... http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1100/godswrathquiz.html

207

How did all the animals fit on Noah's Ark?

by hooberus in

.

many skeptics assert that the bible must be wrong, because they claim that the ark could not possibly have carried all the different types of animals.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/magazines/docs/cen_v19n2_animals_ark.asp

Leolaia

Try: http://www.skepticreport.com/print/sillyflood-p.htm

22

What do the soul do after death? Problems with puctuation.

by krzysiek in

39one of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "aren't you the christ?

save yourself and us!

40but the other criminal rebuked him.

Leolaia

Yeah, fire and worms for the resurrected naughty ones, and some sort of bliss for the goody-goody ones. How the bliss was conceived differed according to the different traditions.

6

Has WT GOT THE WRONG ARCHANGEL?

by badboy in

jw
friends

.

i read that tradition says that gabriel will sound the last trumpet when the end comes.. who who in the bible,readers digest.

Leolaia

The simple answer to your question is that in Jewish-Christian apocalyptic literature, there are several trumpets that the different archangels have. Of these, it is not clear exactly which angel blasts which trumpet. In Revelation 8-11, there are seven trumpets belonging to seven different angels that are blown -- but none of them are associated with the resurrection or judgment. Instead, the resurrection and judgment are mentioned in Revelation 20 as occurring without trumpet blasts. Other apocryphal writings mention trumpet blasts but not necessarily those associated with the resurrection; for instance, in the third-century A.D. Gospel of Bartholomew 4:12, Jesus at his resurrection beckons on Michael the Archangel to sound his trumpet of authority which causes an earthquake and ascent of Beliar from Tartarus being held captive by 666 angels with fiery chains (motifs from this story, incidentally, was later incorporated into the Quran). And there are many angels and archangels mentioned in Jewish traditions which could be identified as trumpeteers: 1 Enoch 20:1-7 names the archangels as Suru'el, Raphael, Uriel, Michael, Saraqa'el, and Gabriel, and Remuel. Tobit 12:15 also assumes about seven archangels which could possibly be related to the seven angels with trumpets in Revelation.

In Matthew 24:31, the gathering of the elect is supposed to occur with "the angels with a loud trumpet call," in 1 Corinthians 15:52 the resurrection occurs "in a twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet," 1 Thessalonians 4:16 mentions the resurrection occuring "with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet call of God." Similarly the first-century A.D. apocalypse in the Didache mentions "first the sign of an opening in heaven, then a sign of the sound of a trumpet, and third, the resurrection of the dead" (Didache 16:6). According to later Catholic tradition, Gabriel is thought to be the angel that blows the Last Trumpet. This might be based on Jewish tradition which viewed Gabriel as the one who blew the trumpet that announced the judgment of Adam:

After that we heard the angel Gabriel blowing a trumpet and summoning all the angels and saying to them, "Thus says the Lord, 'Come to me so that I may descend to the Garden with you, and listen to my judgment with which I shall judge Adam.' " When we heard the sound of the angel's trumpet, we knew that God was about to come to the Garden to judge us. (Pentinence of Our Forefather Adam 44.22.1-2)

This is reminiscent of the Last Trumpet being blown on the great Day of Judgement. Still later Islamic tradition viewed Israfel, the angel of music, as the one who blows the Last Trumpet, while Gabriel was the one who gives the Quran to Mohammad.

Leolaia

39

Are the days of the week Pagan?

by shotgun in

someone posted that the wt should discard the calendar and the days of the week as pagan because of their origins.

actually they did and tried to replace it with their own.

didn't last but it shows the mindset of those who were telling everyone god was directing them at the time and still today.

Leolaia

So do you think you would have heard things like this at Bethel in 1935??

You're here in Peace? I thought you were going to come in Jehovah.

The Toronto branch needs to fill their order of Vindication for the months between Vindication and Order.

Don't be superstitious -- Mansday the 13th falls on Jehovah this year.

I didn't realize it was already the end of Jehovah!

Please, Judge, we need a break -- it's already the last day of Life!

22

What do the soul do after death? Problems with puctuation.

by krzysiek in

39one of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "aren't you the christ?

save yourself and us!

40but the other criminal rebuked him.

Leolaia

LittleToe....

what's your understanding of the Jewish view of what happens AFTER final judgement?

That is discussed in detail in the following post of mine --

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/12/63386/973216/post.ashx#973216

Leolaia