I was wondering the same thing when I saw him on CNN. Despite his being a longtime apologist, was he still "in good standing" before getting involved in the current brouhaha?
Leolaia
JoinedPosts by Leolaia
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11
Michael Jackson's Mom/Firpo Carr/William's Sister
by ExpandedMind inhow can "active" jws such as mj's mom, firpo carr and the william's sister who attended mjs support party, openly support him (because he is an exjw) without getting reproved or disfellowshipped by the organization?
i know that we don't see what goes on behind the scenes, perhaps the do get a "talking to" by the elders, but it seems lately that certain active jws are more bold about associating openly with exjws.. has anyone ever read anything about mjs mom's justification of her on-going relationship with mj?
i realize that situations like this (jws associating with exjws) go on all the time in the organization; it is nothing new.
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Greatest tribulation upon Judaism?
by peacefulpete infor jws and other fundementalists the destruction of jerusalem in 70ce is a unquestionably the fullfillment of the words in mark 13.19. however to see the city's leveling as the " tribulation such as has not occurred since the world's beginning until now" as referring to death numbers we must surmise the death toll to have been horrific indeed!
josephus is of course oft quoted for the numbers.
according to him 97,000 were taken prisoner while 1,100,000 were killed.
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Leolaia
PP.....Was this in one of the threads we were discussing? I was just reading this morning Wells' discussion of the Testimonium and the evidence he presented strongly suggested that the entire text relating to "Jesus" was a late interpolation. Or are you referring to the separate text relating to the execution of James?
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The Trinity in the Old Testament
by hooberus in"and god said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
" genesis 1:26 .
note the plural "our image", "our likeness" yet from other verses it is clear that man was created in gods image and likeness (singular).. "so god created man in his own image, in the image of god created he him; male and female created he them.
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Leolaia
read the trinity brochure.
There are surely better books and works from a unitarian point of view that are not so blatantly dishonest.
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7
Building on WT sand?
by Narkissos ina number of posts by recent and old members of jwd (i won't mention names) struck me as being only variants of the typical wt-stuff involving prophecies or chronology, based on mystical revelation and/or intensive personal study of the bible.
generally those posters did not adhere to any other church, nor went through the academic cursus of theological and biblical studies.
they seem to be quite lonely with their "truth", still persevere in it with remarkable consistency.
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Leolaia
Maybe it has something to do with the fact that while one is being indoctrinated by the Org, WTS teaching comprises a Theory of Everything -- a paradigm with which to view the world, where it is going, and one's place in the world. Some leave the Org to some other elaborate system of thought, but more commonly we retain assumptions, beliefs, and approaches to the Bible and "this system of things". Those who indulge in prophetic speculation inherit their interest and methodology from the WTS but develop what they feel to be superior (whether viewed as more biblically "accurate," chronologically accurate, systematically elegant, etc.) interpretations -- and like the WTS (especially if somewhat emotionally disturbed) may view themselves as having some special insight as the real F&DS or prophet or faith. It's a process that goes back to a young man named C. T. Russell who felt he had special God-given insight into the errors of Adventist prophetic speculation, and goes further to William Miller and beyond into the hazy past.
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10
John and Revelation
by Valis inhmmm...this has been covered before i'm sure, but since we have our own prophets of the apocalypse, i thought we might have a rehash....when john wrote revelation was he hallucinating?
had he gotten into the stash of mountain laurel leaves or what?
it seems to me such a radical departure from the loving kindness espoused by the teachings of jesus, one wonders what he was thinking.
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Leolaia
Revelation is a composite work, containing an amalgam of apocalyptic motifs and themes found throughout Jewish apocalyptic literature: the merkebah mysticism of Ezekiel, Daniel, and 1 Enoch, the visions of the abyss and falling stars from 1 Enoch, the revealing of Beliar and his false prophet myth that runs throughout the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Ascension of Isaiah, and the apocalypses of Mark, the Didache, and 2 Thessalonians, the related Nero revivivus myth of the Jewish Sibylline Oracles and pagan speculation (with its attendant destruction of Babylon, i.e. Rome), the end-times Woes on the Earth themes from Amos, 1 Enoch, 4 Ezra, the Markan Apocalypse, etc., and the chiliast doctrine of the revealing of Paradise and the thousand-year reign (cf. 2 Baruch, Papias, etc.). The later editor, probably John the Presbyter of Ephesus, then added his letters to the churches of Asia -- likely in imitation of Paul's correspondence. There were some rumors in the early church that John stole his apocalypse from Cerinthus.
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Resurrection Appearance to James the Just
by Leolaia inapostle paul provides an early list of jesus' resurrection appearances in 1 corinthians 15. it is important because this list was written before our canonical gospels were written and thus serves as an independent source of information.
paul writes:"christ died for our since, in accordance with the scriptures; that he was buried and that he was raised to life on the third day, in accordance with the scriptures; that he appeared first to cephas and secondly to the twelve.
next he appeared to more than 500 of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still alive, though some have died; then he appeared to james, and then to all the apostles; and last of all he appeared to me too; it was as though i was born when no one expected it.
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Leolaia
I think we may agree that the Synoptic-like sayings that Paul knew were not necessarily all known under the name of Jesus (as Dungan assumes), as some could have come from a catechismal source or as community regulations that later entered the Synoptic tradition. But I think he makes a pretty good case that the "commands of the Lord" that Paul alludes to are connected to the relevant Jesuine sayings in the Synoptics, and verbal Synoptic resemblances may at times combine with these alluded "commands" in the course of Paul's argument.
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22
Greatest tribulation upon Judaism?
by peacefulpete infor jws and other fundementalists the destruction of jerusalem in 70ce is a unquestionably the fullfillment of the words in mark 13.19. however to see the city's leveling as the " tribulation such as has not occurred since the world's beginning until now" as referring to death numbers we must surmise the death toll to have been horrific indeed!
josephus is of course oft quoted for the numbers.
according to him 97,000 were taken prisoner while 1,100,000 were killed.
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Leolaia
Narkissos...You say elegantly in few words what I longwindedly take paragraphs and paragraphs to say! :)
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24
The Turning Sword in Genesis
by Ariell ingenesis 3: 24 - and so he drove the man out and posted at the east of the garden of eden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning itself continually to guard the way to the tree of life.
correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't man create the sword?
what was god doing with a blade in heaven?
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Leolaia
Sentinel....
"Michael turned the chariot and and brought Abraham toward the east, to the first gate of heaven. And Abraham saw two paths. The first was straight and narrow ... [and] this straight gate is the gate of the righteous, which leads to life, and those who enter it come into paradise." (Testament of Abraham 11:1, 10)
"And he shall open the gates of paradise; he shall remove the sword that has threatened since Adam, and he will grant to the righteous to eat of the tree of life." (Testament of Levi 18:10)
Leolaia
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24
The Turning Sword in Genesis
by Ariell ingenesis 3: 24 - and so he drove the man out and posted at the east of the garden of eden the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning itself continually to guard the way to the tree of life.
correct me if i'm wrong, but didn't man create the sword?
what was god doing with a blade in heaven?
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Leolaia
Of course it was destroyed in the Deluge. ;-)
So much for the belief that paradise was preserved into third heaven before the Flood (cf. 2 Corinthians; 2 Enoch; 2 Baruch; Apocalypse of Moses; Jewish tradition), and will be revealed and restored on earth after the Day of Judgment (cf. Revelation; Testament of Levi; Testament of Dan; 2 Baruch).
Leolaia
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Interrelationships in versions of a Jesuine saying
by Leolaia inthe sayings of jesus, as oral formulations that eventually take written form, can differ widely among each other in the gospels.
i decided to take one example to study in detail the interrelationships between the recorded forms of the saying so i chose the "true family" saying that occurs in a wide variety of sayings, and which did not originate in q. i present the sayings below in their narrative settings and highlighted the different distinctive features of the forms.
1st jesuine sentence is a question: mk, mt, eb .
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Leolaia
The sayings of Jesus, as oral formulations that eventually take written form, can differ widely among each other in the gospels. I decided to take one example to study in detail the interrelationships between the recorded forms of the saying so I chose the "True Family" saying that occurs in a wide variety of sayings, and which did not originate in Q. I present the sayings below in their narrative settings and highlighted the different distinctive features of the forms. Then I list below the occurrence of 15 features in the extant sayings:
"And his mother and his brothers came; standing outside they sent to him and called him. And a crowd was sitting about him; and they said to him, 'Your mother and your brothers are outside, asking for you.' And he replied, 'Who are my mother and my brothers?' And looking around on those who sat about him, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother.' " (Mark 3:31-35)
"While he was still speaking to the people, behold, his mother and his brothers stood outside, asking to speak to him. But he replied to the man who told him, 'Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?' And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, 'Here are my mother and my brothers! For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother, and sister, and mother.' " (Matthew 12:46-50)
"Then his mother and his brothers came to him, but they could not reach him for the crowd. And he was told, 'Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, desiring to see you.' But he said to them, 'My mother and my brothers arethose who hear the word of God and do it.' " (Luke 8:19-21)
"The disciples said to him, 'Your brothers and your mother are standing outside.' He said to them, 'Those here who do the will of my father are my brothers and my mother. It is they who will enter the Kingdom of my father.' " (Gospel of Thomas 99:1-2)
"The Savior spoke when it was reported to him: 'Behold, your mother and your brothers stand outside,' namely: 'Who is my mother and who are my brothers?' And he stretched forth his hand towards his disciples and said: 'These are my brothers and mothers and sisters, who do the will of my father.' " (Gospel of the Ebionites, 5)
"For the Lord said, 'My brothers are these who do the will of my Father.' " (2 Clement 9:10-11)
Distinctive features
:Initial question with "behold": MT, EB
Initial question with tag ending: MK, MT, LK
Tag ending of initial question with a verb "asking": MK, MT
Jesuine saying in two parts: MK, MT, EB
Jesus stretches out hand: MT, EB
1st Jesuine sentence is a question: MK, MT, EB
Jesus answers with deictic "here": MK, MT, TH
Jesus answers with deictic "these/those": LK, TH, EB, CL
Whoever/who begins sentence: MK, MT
brothers / relatives < will of my father in final Jesuine sentence: LK, CL
will of my father < brothers/relatives in final Jesuine sentence: MK, MT, TH, EB
will instead of word: MK, MT, TH, EB, CL
will/word of my father: MT, TH, EB, CL
sister added to final sentence: MK, MT, EB
brother < mother order in final sentence: MK, MT, TH, EBThen we can rank pairs of gospels to examine the degree to which they resemble each other in the rendering of the "True Family" saying:
MT, MK: 10
MT, EB: 9
EB, MK: 6
MT, TH: 5
TH, EB: 5
TH, MK: 4
TH, CL: 3
EB, CL: 3
MT, CL: 2
LK, CL: 2
MT, LK: 1
LK, MK: 1
LK, TH: 1
LK, EB: 1
CL, MK: 1The result is quite interesting. Matthew and Mark appear to be most closely related in the way they handle this saying. The probable reason for this is that Matthew copied his version of the saying from Mark, altering the narrative setting somewhat but leaving the saying itself mostly unchanged. The next closest similarity is between Matthew and the Gospel of the Ebionites. This is undoubtedly because the Ebionite gospel was a Jewish-Christian version of Matthew, as most church fathers believed. The dependence of the Ebionite gospel on certain unique features of Matthew (such as "behold" and Jesus stretching out his hand) would constitute evidence of this. The strong but less close similarity between the Ebionite gospel and Mark would necessarily follow from the fact that Matthew is dependent on Mark. The rest of the resemblances between the gospels are far less intense and thus likely likely reflect common oral history rather than direct literary dependence. The Gospel of Thomas is closest to both Matthew and the Gospel of the Ebionites. This means that the oral tradition that contributed to this saying in Thomas is closer to that of Matthew (and the Ebionite gospel inspired by it) than Mark and Luke, so Thomas may have known some of the developments that led between Mark and Matthew -- or more likely, developed the saying in a similar manner to Matthew. The citation in 2 Clement is very brief and does not reproduce the narrative context so it cannot be compared to the other gospels in the same way. Still, we may observe that the pseudo-Clementine citation is closest to Thomas and the Ebionite gospel than the other contenders. 2 Clement elsewhere shows dependence on sayings that resemble Thomas more than that of the canonical gospels. Finally, the big surprise is Luke. It shows little similarity to Mark and has either radically reformulated the Markan saying and narrative, or taken the pericope from an independent source. Its formulation however contains some non-Markan features elsewhere found in Thomas and 2 Clement, such as the deictic "these/those" and the use of brothers/relatives < will of my father order. This would suggest indeed that the Lukan saying was derived from an independent source but the narrative context was borrowed from Mark.
Leolaia